What is this Declaration?

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby ryanr » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:31 pm

blue04 wrote:I'm a believer in letting like minded people form whatever groups they want with whatever rules they can all agree on. But this thread (and several others) have more or less convinced me that the various DD groups are their own worst enemies.


Various groups? The thing is there's actually only one, the VDD, the parent group. I agree this form is ridiculous in tone and execution for what its purpose allegedly is but if you ask me the strength of the breed is because there's only one group and they have set a strict, clear and uniform standard of requirements for breeding. Which is why I think the breed is starting to surge more in recent popularity and interest among North American hunters and that surge has probably sparked the recent much-talked about concern and action amongst the group and it's chapters and membership.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:03 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:The form was sent out with an optional reply. If you don't want to sign it...no one is going to look down upon you or think less of you. You can agree with the "trademark" quest or not...it's irrelevant...but you're mis-speaking by saying anyone is jamming anything down your throat. And before I get labeled as a flag bearer for this project...I think it's something that is unattainable within our financial restrictions and unenforceable by our club. But that's simply my opinion. If the club decides that's the direction they want to go...I'll stand behind them and not be the guy benefitting from all the hard work that was done previously...then bashing them on the internet.


So you are saying if you want to be a member we have to follow blindly?

I love my dog, I love the club, I think great changes are being made and support some but not all of the recent changes. This one in particular is a waste of money, and while I don't disagree with anything the declaration states, I don't plan to support further lawyer feeding.
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby blue04 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:30 pm

ryanr wrote:Various groups? The thing is there's actually only one, the VDD, the parent group.


I don't pretend to understand the structure of German based groups, so I'll take your word on this one.

ryanr wrote:if you ask me the strength of the breed is because there's only one group and they have set a strict, clear and uniform standard of requirements for breeding.


Yes and no. I'll agree with the "strict" part of your statement. Assuming breeding restrictions are based on testing, I don't personally think the "clear and uniform" part is correct. I've lost track of how many threads I've read on this site about various interpretations of the test rules and judging criteria. A lot of it seems to be a combination of possible bad translations from German to English and/or differences in the implications of various wording between the Germans and the rest of the world. Regardless of the reasons, to an outside observer (me) it doesn't seem to be "clear and uniform" even to folks that claim to have been testing in that system for many years.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby gusto » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:32 am

blue04 wrote:I'm a believer in letting like minded people form whatever groups they want with whatever rules they can all agree on. But this thread (and several others) have more or less convinced me that the various DD groups are their own worst enemies.

100% agree!
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby CohanseyDD » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:44 am

Misskiwi67,
I don't "blindly follow" anyone and don't suggest anyone else does either. I stated that I didn't personally agree with the movement, but I would hope that our Executive Committee would have enough foresight to anticipate the legal expenses that might be incurrred with the project? Once they decide to go that direction...there's nothing you, me or anyone else can do to change that decision. Griping about it on here won't help. Have you contacted anyone from the EC to ask about details of the project or to voice your concerns?
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby jlw034 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:49 am

Seems like a pointless endeavor to me. My understanding is you cannot trademark common terms. German/Deutsch and Wirehair/Drahthaar would almost certainly fall under common terms.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby bwana_don » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:40 pm

Wow, glad I am only an observer that is hopeful other clubs do not follow this path.

What might be interesting is testing the members - much like we test our dogs.

Maybe it would solve something if members were required within a year of joining to pass a literacy test about their breed and the goals of the club. If that pass - they have voting rights, if they do not pass they do not have voting rights. Things like what this topic is trying to address could be included in the test - if they know it great, if they do not they get a call from someone to explain it to them. It would also be useful to point back too when a member violates a policy, point to the test and say - you knew better.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:03 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:Misskiwi67,
I don't "blindly follow" anyone and don't suggest anyone else does either. I stated that I didn't personally agree with the movement, but I would hope that our Executive Committee would have enough foresight to anticipate the legal expenses that might be incurrred with the project? Once they decide to go that direction...there's nothing you, me or anyone else can do to change that decision. Griping about it on here won't help. Have you contacted anyone from the EC to ask about details of the project or to voice your concerns?


I personally don't agree either, on this or the prior issue.

And, hope truly springs eternal...

But, let's not be naïve... this train is going down the tracks, and there will be more/similar dictates to come. There is momentum and an EB that is driven to leave a signature on VDD history. So, anyone standing on the tracks is going to get run over.

Basically, right now it is what it is.

The wording of the manifesto implies a lack of professional experience with patents and copyright law as well as the impression that bullying words and something that sounds like legal gibberish will scare individuals into submission.

The question is how that layman is going to enforce the copyright when someone doesn't roll over, and the real legal shiiii..sttuff begins... I'm guessing that will be a humbling experience, because being a bully isn't going to work when pitted against someone's real lawyer and a real judge in court...

We shall see,

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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby Wolfgang » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:29 am

reading the first post of this thread,I thought it was a joke :? But after rereading and focus on that penality...phrase I figuered it was serious and real :shock:
Since it doesen't affect me I shouldn't care,but I have to deal with similar bull$#*! since more than 20 years already at our annual "Hundeobleutetagung" (meeting of elected people who do the seminars for JEP test which also furnishes a good foundation for advanced tests like HZP and VGP)
I hear the same bull$#*! EVERY year about breedings outside VDD or other breedclubs and the backyardbreeding without papers which bothers first and foremost those who are breeding and trying to sell pups.But our state law requires no papers for this and that is what counts!
My opinion is you don't need any written sanctions or anything like what is put up here,you only need to breed superiour dogs and you'll have a market for them.
The reason for all these "moves" is the numbers of pups each year going down and they would shrunk even more without the market outside germany :wink:
But they can struggle as much as they want ,the game situation here will not change the way,that 4000 DD pups per breedyear will ever be needed again or could be marketed! :idea: :)
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby Deuce » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:40 am

3drahthaars wrote:
The question is how that layman is going to enforce the copyright when someone doesn't roll over, and the real legal shiiii..sttuff begins... I'm guessing that will be a humbling experience, because being a bully isn't going to work when pitted against someone's real lawyer and a real judge in court...

3ds


Very correct, that is the question indeed.

I also like your choice of wording, I.E. bullying. That's what it feels like to me, this and the previous measure.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:17 am

Supposedly, there is some "stuff" going on at the GNA Facebook site... one "gentleman" appears to be up in arms because some other members are making DD merchandise and "profiting at the club's expense".

Hense, the real reason seems to be the "$"; what a surprise!

In reality, the only members not profiting in one way or another are the hunters with mature dogs and not testing, and especially the active judges in the same circumstance, because you definitely don't make money on the reimbursements for travel, meals, etc., especially when GNA "floats" your expenses for at least one credit card cycle (FACT)!

Therefore, I don't think that the issue is profiting from the breed so much as the "wrong" individuals profiting from the breed. So, it distills down to the definition of "wrong" and who determines it.

I just wonder how many $s the lab organizations are losing from others merchandising their breed and why they're not up in arms.


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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:31 am

Wolfgang wrote:reading the first post of this thread,I thought it was a joke :? But after rereading and focus on that penality...phrase I figuered it was serious and real :shock:
Since it doesen't affect me I shouldn't care,but I have to deal with similar bull$#*! since more than 20 years already at our annual "Hundeobleutetagung" (meeting of elected people who do the seminars for JEP test which also furnishes a good foundation for advanced tests like HZP and VGP)
I hear the same bull$#*! EVERY year about breedings outside VDD or other breedclubs and the backyardbreeding without papers which bothers first and foremost those who are breeding and trying to sell pups.But our state law requires no papers for this and that is what counts!
My opinion is you don't need any written sanctions or anything like what is put up here,you only need to breed superiour dogs and you'll have a market for them.
The reason for all these "moves" is the numbers of pups each year going down and they would shrunk even more without the market outside germany :wink:
But they can struggle as much as they want ,the game situation here will not change the way,that 4000 DD pups per breedyear will ever be needed again or could be marketed! :idea: :)


Wolf,

You are absolutely correct about free market economics... i.e. breeding good dogs and the people will come.

But, this is the US. And, we make a practice of convoluting the free market with special interests and politics... GNA is simply an extension of quintessential American politics and economics with a little bit of good old European dictatorship mixed in. About 10% of the membership truly calls the shots. Another 50% of naieve (sp) membership is convinced or threatened into following along blindly and maintaining status quo. And, the balance is either complacent or frustrated into simply paying dues and just hunting their dogs.

So, it is what it is. But, I think this recent bout of bullying is going to force an issue in the organization. And, I believe that there will be a counter movement to return to a more normal course of doing business.

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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:27 am

3drahthaars wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:reading the first post of this thread,I thought it was a joke :? But after rereading and focus on that penality...phrase I figuered it was serious and real :shock:
Since it doesen't affect me I shouldn't care,but I have to deal with similar bull$#*! since more than 20 years already at our annual "Hundeobleutetagung" (meeting of elected people who do the seminars for JEP test which also furnishes a good foundation for advanced tests like HZP and VGP)
I hear the same bull$#*! EVERY year about breedings outside VDD or other breedclubs and the backyardbreeding without papers which bothers first and foremost those who are breeding and trying to sell pups.But our state law requires no papers for this and that is what counts!
My opinion is you don't need any written sanctions or anything like what is put up here,you only need to breed superiour dogs and you'll have a market for them.
The reason for all these "moves" is the numbers of pups each year going down and they would shrunk even more without the market outside germany :wink:
But they can struggle as much as they want ,the game situation here will not change the way,that 4000 DD pups per breedyear will ever be needed again or could be marketed! :idea: :)


Wolf,

You are absolutely correct about free market economics... i.e. breeding good dogs and the people will come.

But, this is the US. And, we make a practice of convoluting the free market with special interests and politics... GNA is simply an extension of quintessential American politics and economics with a little bit of good old European dictatorship mixed in. About 10% of the membership truly calls the shots. Another 50% of naieve (sp) membership is convinced or threatened into following along blindly and maintaining status quo. And, the balance is either complacent or frustrated into simply paying dues and just hunting their dogs.

So, it is what it is. But, I think this recent bout of bullying is going to force an issue in the organization. And, I believe that there will be a counter movement to return to a more normal course of doing business.

3ds

Hope everything will turn out well and people can find the dog that suits them to enjoy and hunt and club policies will not scare off those who built the foundation of the club.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby largefrag » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:40 pm

I think these recent actions were well intentioned...just poorly executed and poorly delivered/communicated to the club at large without appropriate time for discussion and feedback. I realize that the meetings and representation are still discussed at chapter and national annual meeting per the guidelines of the organization. However, geography and other constraints prevent a large portion of active members from being able to attend and be as active as possible in the discussions as they would like to be. In this day in age with technology as it is (webcasts, live feeds, our club ought to be able to communicate better and get more folks involved without physically traveling across the country. Of course this is easier said than done, especially when your not the persons responsible for putting it all together, but I think if these issue shad been better communicated and discussed a priori, most of these misunderstandings and the infighting we are seeing would't be happening.
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Re: What is this Declaration?

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:48 am

Having been involved with dog clubs for 55 years, the ultimate responsibility rests with the members. In every dog club, the great majority of members are missing in action. After all, they have lives - jobs, families, a lawn to mow, T-ball to play, and a list of higher priorities. In the end, we get the club and the leadership we deserve, as a result of our participation. In almost every dog club, 20% participate which means 11% call the shots. The rest have a choice...to complain or get involved. As far as communication, I agree with comments here. It should be better...but I'm wondering what the email "Inbox" looks like when you're an officer of a 1300 member club.
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