search in VJP and HZP

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:32 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:Shouldn't 90%+ of dogs tested never have the opportunity to score 11 on most subjects? For me on a very short walk in the field at a test how can a judge really know for sure the real level of the combination of desire/independence/cooperation/search. I would think that you would really need to see a dog in multiple situations and circumstances to identify the 'exceptionally' cooperative dog. 10 is the top score available most of the time and a person should be very happy with it. Maybe to test for 11's the judges should have the handler go hide for a while, put out a cooler of beverages and see if the pup selects the handlers favorite and delivers it to hand without command :D


It's one day in the life of a puppy... could be a good one... might be a bad one. It's not perfect, you have two chances. But, most of us get a pretty good idea of what your pup is like... I think that we all can ID a self-hunter even on his best day.

FYI, all puppies start out with a 10... they can all bring it up to an 11 or 12, or it can go down based upon their performance on that day.

As for the cooler of beverages, I think that maybe handlers can read up on the regs' and learn themselves what is required so that they better understand how to prepare their pup and/or when the judges announce their scores. One thing that comes to mind is that a lot of handlers don't really hunt their dogs enough to understand what makes a good dog, and as a result the regulations are opaque to them (you can correct me on the spelling). Some get pulled by their dogs through the tests by the bootstraps and become judges who still don't understand...

Just like it takes birds to make a bird dog... it takes hunting experience to make a hunter. And, it takes experience hunting over a dog to really understand bird hunting.

Rudy Baga wrote:Ok Smabby, I think I understand. Your dog TAKES a cue from your movement and always hunts where you want him without any other communication so we give him an eleven. Mine hunts over the hill and never looks for me so we will be generous and give him a seven. I SEND him a que via wireless and he comes back to the the same field I am in. I SEND him another que via wireless and he stays in sight if he feels like it. After about the 4th or 5th SENT cue he starts to read my mind and becomes a 10. I can also read his mind and he thinks I am a PITA for not letting him hunt the way he wants.


This describes an uncooperative dog... and, if he stays available he'll get the 10, just like a pup shocked into "standing game" will get a 10 for point. There are cues/ ques (whatever) that the pup is cooperating. Watch a dog closely in the field and you can see if he's giving you a glance as he casts. If he darts into thick cover to investigate when he emerges you see him making the effort to look for the handler. Zig-zag 10 steps in a large field, turn away from your pup and see how long it takes him to reverse cast. A cooperative dog is subtle... a boot polisher isn't... it's not rocket science. But, it takes some effort to learn.

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby largefrag » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:23 am

A cooperative dog is subtle


I like that quote. I like a big running dog with a lot of independence. We have the dog to find the game, not the other way around. Just a simple glance as a dog passes by, the occsssional check back or look to the handler after leaving heavy cover or making a couple hundred yard cast is plenty to score an 11 in my book. Like someone mentioned, I think a dog that can do that while burning it up and hunting hard and can balance cooperation with independence demonstrates much more "cooperation" than the dog that handling tight, quartering or constantly looking back to his handler to make any decisions.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:37 am

I like that quote. I like a big running dog with a lot of independence. We have the dog to find the game, not the other way around. Just a simple glance as a dog passes by, the occsssional check back or look to the handler after leaving heavy cover or making a couple hundred yard cast is plenty to score an 11 in my book. Like someone mentioned, I think a dog that can do that while burning it up and hunting hard and can balance cooperation with independence demonstrates much more "cooperation" than the dog that handling tight, quartering or constantly looking back to his handler to make any decisions.


As long as the same dog can sit patiently in the duck blind, not whine or bolt on the drive hunt, can slow down on a difficult blood track, and hunt with other dogs peacefully, I'm good with it. A tear-it-up bird dog is not the last measure of a Euro dog. On to the VGP...and some real hunting.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby largefrag » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:46 am

Of course we want our dogs to excel at all of the above and have the genetic package to do it all.....but all things being equal, most North American hunt differently than European hunters and we want our dogs to excel more in the areas that are important to us. For example, I hunt a ton of upland and waterfowl and want a dog thatvcan burn up afield and find birds as well as sit in a blind with quiet focus. I've never sat in a deer blind or been on a driven hunt and more than likely never will. That doesn't meen my dog can't do those things( he did - VGP PRize 1) but when I look for a dog, I would be less concerned with less than perfect permformances in some areas to get superior qualities in the others; especially if they are more in line with the way I hunt and the way I'll use my dog. To me, that's the beauty of the the system...folks can keep all the inherent "do-all" qualities of the breed and still tailor their line, breedings etc to fit there preference in dogs.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:42 am

folks can keep all the inherent "do-all" qualities


I think we agree...and I think I know you well enough to say that you want to keep the "whole" dog. On the other hand if we never ask our dogs to do the mundane chores that require focus, calm and cooperation, we really don't know. We are still dependent on Germany to supply those qualities. Most dogs in the US are no more than 1-2 generations removed from German dogs, where 90% of breeding dogs are VGP'ed. We are profiting from the focus and calm that Germans prioritize...and we shouldn't underestimate how these qualities help to make our dogs productive and enjoyable.

We should use our dogs for what we need...but we should breed and train for the whole dog.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby largefrag » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:28 am

Couldn't agree more!
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:08 pm

DrahtsundBraats wrote:
folks can keep all the inherent "do-all" qualities


I think we agree...and I think I know you well enough to say that you want to keep the "whole" dog. On the other hand if we never ask our dogs to do the mundane chores that require focus, calm and cooperation, we really don't know. We are still dependent on Germany to supply those qualities. Most dogs in the US are no more than 1-2 generations removed from German dogs, where 90% of breeding dogs are VGP'ed. We are profiting from the focus and calm that Germans prioritize...and we shouldn't underestimate how these qualities help to make our dogs productive and enjoyable.

We should use our dogs for what we need...but we should breed and train for the whole dog.


And, we should realize it's not a number's game...

I think that we've all seen or heard of the VGP dog that wasn't as behaved in the duck blind as his score would have one to believe... a good breeder has to be honest with himself and come to grips that he's not going to get the "silk" purse.

It's no shame to be able to admit that one has to start over from scratch.

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:54 pm

Bob,
You make a great point. The testing system should be used to find the dog that fits the "style" of the buyer. Largefrag wants that "11" hard charging dog whereas many owners might be more comfortable with a solid, and steady "8-9" searching dog. We have to stop thinking that every dog has to be an "11".

I haven't judged as much as 3d but I have already noticed that a LOT of handlers are over matched or perhaps not getting the training help they need. Breeding power dogs should not be our priority...they are a spice that a pedigree may need at some point as long as they can be cooperative as well.

I have been open about the fact that my stud dog is a higher powered dog and should be used wisely. He is going to produce some pups that may be a handful for some. Its the main reason I have not used him a lot. When someone calls to talk about their "hot rod" female, I generally don't feel it would be a match.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Rudy Baga » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:33 pm

Is anyone planning a breeding of two solid 8/9 dogs in search? If the scores are higher on point, nose and coop I would be interested. I have been looking for such a DD breeding for quite a while and I don't think anyone is breeding dogs like that. Send a PM if you want.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm enjoying this thread. Appreciate the insight and thoughtful responses. I think breeders from all breeds can take something home from the information in this thread.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby madduckdog » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:11 pm

My dog got an 11 in cooperation, I have no idea why. I was so happy It felt wrong to ask...


what would some Judges score on cooperation.... :lol:
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby madduckdog » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:25 pm

my PP got a 11 on duck search he came back in the Judge ask me to trun him back I did... the second time the judge said let him come in and lets see what he does... he got on the bank walked right behind us,,,, went back in the water behind us.. in to some really nasty water then produced a duck..

the head judge kind of got on the other judge for not haveing his gun ready.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:22 pm

Rudy Baga wrote:Is anyone planning a breeding of two solid 8/9 dogs in search? If the scores are higher on point, nose and coop I would be interested. I have been looking for such a DD breeding for quite a while and I don't think anyone is breeding dogs like that. Send a PM if you want.


First, search is not necessarily equated to "range"... the predominant requisite for search is "will to find". And, this is somewhat tied in to the pace of the search as a dog searching mostly "at a trot" can only score a maximum of a "7". I suppose that the natural result of this is that a dog at a full gallop consumes space pretty quickly and you're back to a big running dog (in open prairie).

Realistically, if you hunt sharptails and woodcock you want a dog that adjusts its search to the cover, otherwise on the prairie you will walk every square foot and completely negate any advantage of a dog.

If handlers are challenged by too much dog, I don't believe in "breeding down" i.e. breeding 8-9 search dogs with the intention of developing a dog that is consistently VG+ in everything but search... it serves no practical purpose to the breed to selectively weaken a trait.

The goal is and should always be to breed the well rounded dog that balances search/cooperation and so that it hunts to the cover. Because, the IDEAL is the "11" search with the "11" cooperation that hunts the all cover aggressively and still maintains the appropriate contact with the handler.

Derailing this thread to address a specific breed, I've said it before, and will reiterate... the Drahthaar is not necessarily for everyone. As a breed it has definite traits that appeal to the hunting style of some who become the satisfied customers.

However, those who purchase the DD as if it were some exotic boutique breed or to specialize for a specific type of hunting in general are getting a DD for the wrong reasons.

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:12 am

3drahthaars wrote:
Rudy Baga wrote:Is anyone planning a breeding of two solid 8/9 dogs in search? If the scores are higher on point, nose and coop I would be interested. I have been looking for such a DD breeding for quite a while and I don't think anyone is breeding dogs like that. Send a PM if you want.


First, search is not necessarily equated to "range"... the predominant requisite for search is "will to find". And, this is somewhat tied in to the pace of the search as a dog searching mostly "at a trot" can only score a maximum of a "7". I suppose that the natural result of this is that a dog at a full gallop consumes space pretty quickly and you're back to a big running dog (in open prairie).

Realistically, if you hunt sharptails and woodcock you want a dog that adjusts its search to the cover, otherwise on the prairie you will walk every square foot and completely negate any advantage of a dog.

If handlers are challenged by too much dog, I don't believe in "breeding down" i.e. breeding 8-9 search dogs with the intention of developing a dog that is consistently VG+ in everything but search... it serves no practical purpose to the breed to selectively weaken a trait.

The goal is and should always be to breed the well rounded dog that balances search/cooperation and so that it hunts to the cover. Because, the IDEAL is the "11" search with the "11" cooperation that hunts the all cover aggressively and still maintains the appropriate contact with the handler.

Derailing this thread to address a specific breed, I've said it before, and will reiterate... the Drahthaar is not necessarily for everyone. As a breed it has definite traits that appeal to the hunting style of some who become the satisfied customers.

However, those who purchase the DD as if it were some exotic boutique breed or to specialize for a specific type of hunting in general are getting a DD for the wrong reasons.


3ds


First ,8/9 means high good to very good,if that is not good enough for broodstock especially when all other traits are also in that predicate and the dog comes with a absolutely calm and laid back temperament and hardness/sharpness to work predatory and big dangerous game,I really don't know who got here something wrong.
But to Rudy's post,my interpretation is he would rather have a solid dog (based on artificial testing and judging)in good to very good predicate than a dog who is bred to win high caliber national or international tests but walks the line between genious and complete idiot.
About judging search in NA-test(Anlageprüfung VJP+HZP) is like you mentioned first and foremost will to find,second also stated correctly its pace,together with stamina and endurance but than in HZP we have in addition to the former the [b]"planmäßigkeit[/b]" and this is what seperates the best from the rest.
To show the best performance in this trait the dog needs to have a bunch of other inherited traits and not been trained to zig zag and fool some VR's who do not really know their business.
The dogs needs to adjust his pace to the quality of his nose,he has to be intelligent enough to use the wind to his advantage he MUST carefully search all cover in front of his handler not leaving any spots unchecked before he casts out deeper, plus, plus,it bursts the threat to type it all,but this dog and really only this type of dog deserves an 11!!!!! In reality the dog that runs like a greyhound finds a covey 500 yards ahead of his handler is the one that usually gets the high vg predicate and gets celebrated and gets also in combination the same score for great nose :evil: Everybody gets that "better than sex" feeling and is fascinated,but what about all the uncontrolled space between the handler and the 500 yards line who knows ,who controlls if there is/was game unidentified by the big runner with the "great" nose who's speed is faster than his nose!??
And what you all seem to forget when judging or handling and got pissed if your big runner has bad luck to be jugded by people who know their business and don't furnish the 11 which you think your dog would have greately deserved...... search is not limited to feathered game (this is for sure the case in the brain of the NA upland birdhunter) NO!!!!! Suche bedeuted den Wille Wild zu finden!!!! Its the drive and desire and performance to find GAME not birds only!!!!
If I judge and have to deal with this type of handler and dog I call another dog to search the same area(and I call one which has shown in advance that he has the desired search for high predicate) and hope for game being overrun by the first horizonbuster to make the judges decission easy to understand even for a first time handler!!!! But they are usually the easy handling type of handlers anyway,my "favorite"type is the so called pro's or breeders who start in the morning before the first task is accomplished already with the 70 or 180 mark heading to the full potential of possible scoring.
I don't bend my back because of any big names,its our duty to watch carefuly every performance of the dogs on test day ,to stay as close as possible to the dog and than judge the performance strictly according to the PO regardless of personal preferences ,relation to handler or breeder or respect for big names!!!!!They all came to this planet naked bareheaded and without teeth and they all leave it the same way and everybody cooks with water.
But it all boils down to the performance shown at test day and the way its judged.
That is what everybody (handlers) have to accept and find a way to swallow and tolerate and always keep in mind you take the same dog home tonight that you brought in the morning!
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Rudy Baga » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:24 am

First, let me say thanks to Wolfgang for his post which expressed my thoughts better than I could.

3ds, I was a little confused by your suggestion that an 8/9 dog in search with higher scores in the other catagories is an esoteric boutique dog. I went through the amrbruster rankings for a couple of years and found that about 25-30 percent of the dogs scored a 9 or less in search. Since the armbruster dogs have already been screened through the VJP, I would guess that a 9 search is around the average of all dogs bred, maybe a little less. Are you suggesting these dogs should only be bred to 10 or 11 search dogs to avoid selectively downgrading the breed?

You state that the 11/11 search/cooperation dog is the ideal. Actually I have a dog whose dad was an 11/11 with 10 or 11 everywhere else. He had the highest VGP score I have seen. He is a tremendous dog with more power, talent, drive and stamina than I ever thought could be put into a dog. In the hands of the select group of drahthaar owners you favor that are good trainers and seeking the "ideal" dog with the highest scores, he would have been a superstar. My training skills are an 8 at best but with a lot of correction we are able to hunt together and have a good time.

I don't understand why wanting a dog that would be around average for the breed puts me in the boutique category or why you should suggest I look for another breed. I don't care if your and select group seeking the ideal breeds a drahthaar with wings. Why do you care if someone else breeds a dog that hunts with all four feet on the ground and is easier to train? You don't have to breed to them.

I wonder where your ideal standard is coming from. From Wolfgang's post it appears that it is not coming from Germany. I can tell you that from my discussions with breeders while looking for my dog, I have found several that are not pleased with the direction the breed is going toward high power but hard to train dogs vs casual hunter friendly dogs. They are hard to find and not very vocal. As one of them put, if I find a breeder willing to breed the dog I want, he probably would not admit it public because it would not be politically correct.

I was curious what the official position was on this subject and went to the JGV-USA site to look for the description of the search test but for some reason the page would not open. But I did find this statement from the mission statement.


German breeders consistently produce dogs most suitable for the modern foot hunter. These dogs exhibit a high degree of cooperation and trainability coupled with an ability to handle any game you desire to hunt.

Note the mention of trainaiblilty and coperation but not power, stamina or speed. I think maybe you are the one that is in the esoteric boutique class, not me.
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