search in VJP and HZP

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:01 am

Thanks Rudy,

What I expressed is my personal opinion and point of view but please don't interpret this as the common german opinion or seeing me as the speaker for my home country.
I know alot of guys ,hunters handlers and VR's (from the latter usually only the oldtimers)share my opinion and my point of view ,but again I'm not speaking for JGHV,VDD or germany all together.
I'm also not trying to speak for 3d's here,but I think what he is trying to say is that we also need the top scorers the race horse type so to say for needed input in the genetics of broodstock some times,but breeding racehorse to racehorse generation after generation will not end up in a calm easy riding pleasure pony suitable and enjoyable for everyone,defenately more the oposite.
But the second part of this sentence is again nothing but my personal opinion which doesn't need to rule for anyone else!
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:25 pm

Rudy Baga wrote:First, let me say thanks to Wolfgang for his post which expressed my thoughts better than I could.

3ds, I was a little confused by your suggestion that an 8/9 dog in search with higher scores in the other catagories is an esoteric boutique dog. I went through the amrbruster rankings for a couple of years and found that about 25-30 percent of the dogs scored a 9 or less in search. Since the armbruster dogs have already been screened through the VJP, I would guess that a 9 search is around the average of all dogs bred, maybe a little less. Are you suggesting these dogs should only be bred to 10 or 11 search dogs to avoid selectively downgrading the breed?

You state that the 11/11 search/cooperation dog is the ideal. Actually I have a dog whose dad was an 11/11 with 10 or 11 everywhere else. He had the highest VGP score I have seen. He is a tremendous dog with more power, talent, drive and stamina than I ever thought could be put into a dog. In the hands of the select group of drahthaar owners you favor that are good trainers and seeking the "ideal" dog with the highest scores, he would have been a superstar. My training skills are an 8 at best but with a lot of correction we are able to hunt together and have a good time.

I don't understand why wanting a dog that would be around average for the breed puts me in the boutique category or why you should suggest I look for another breed. I don't care if your and select group seeking the ideal breeds a drahthaar with wings. Why do you care if someone else breeds a dog that hunts with all four feet on the ground and is easier to train? You don't have to breed to them.

I wonder where your ideal standard is coming from. From Wolfgang's post it appears that it is not coming from Germany. I can tell you that from my discussions with breeders while looking for my dog, I have found several that are not pleased with the direction the breed is going toward high power but hard to train dogs vs casual hunter friendly dogs. They are hard to find and not very vocal. As one of them put, if I find a breeder willing to breed the dog I want, he probably would not admit it public because it would not be politically correct.

I was curious what the official position was on this subject and went to the JGV-USA site to look for the description of the search test but for some reason the page would not open. But I did find this statement from the mission statement.


German breeders consistently produce dogs most suitable for the modern foot hunter. These dogs exhibit a high degree of cooperation and trainability coupled with an ability to handle any game you desire to hunt.

Note the mention of trainaiblilty and coperation but not power, stamina or speed. I think maybe you are the one that is in the esoteric boutique class, not me.


I'm not one of any "select group of trainers". In fact far from it. Nor am I looking for a urinating contest, here... so, I think that you should re-read without taking any personal insult, take your time and then reply. (If you read though a couple of your paragraphs it's obvious that you were a little rattled and left out and or mispelled a few words as a result). And, please don't turn this into a contest of vocabulary and semantics:

First, if there is no reference to stamina or speed (as you interpret the website description) why would a pup's pace determine the score of his search, eh? This was explained in my original post, so once again you really need to read and comprehend before jumping in head first...

The key is balance (also mentioned previously). I've an "11" Search / "10" Coop dog that can "roll" for sharptails and still be fun to hunt on quail and woodcock down here. I personally think her Coop was scored low... possibly your dog's father's was scored a little high from what you describe.

So, why would I ever have desired an 8/9 search dog. And, remember that a solid good search "7" can be done at a trot! It would limit our hunting opportunities. And, if one really wants a dog that plods along, why not just look to another breed that characteristically hunts at that pace, like a Gordon... instead of redesigning the DD.

I've said it before and will repeat it again... the DD is not for everyone... why should it be redesigned. And, as D&B said a large proportion of our dogs are 1-2 generations out of Germany (mine's about 75% German bred), so you're for the most part not seeing anything much different than what is in Europe, except for probably a little more experience in upland hunting.

Just for the record, how many DDs have you evaluated and where? And, how many of the Armbruster dogs whose scores you referred did you actually see in the field?

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby leadeyedbugger » Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:55 pm

This is the fundamental problem with trying to read too much into test scores no matter what the testing arena. You don't really know what the dogs were like unless you were there in person watching them. All that I know for sure if the dog scored higher then 7 was that it hunted the cover in some kind of reasonable fashion at more then a trot pace.
If your really looking for a particular type of dog, then you have to put in the time and effort and boots on the ground to go out and see a lot of dogs and look for trends in the lines so to speak...
I think it can be fairly eye opening when you go to multiple tests and really watch the dogs with a objective mind. Watching the "handlers" also. I see a lot of variation in the search of dogs. Of course you run into the age old nature vs. nurture scenario. But I think that you can see some general similarities within litters. I remember very well when I ran VJP. The "search" are was a semi sparce crp field not grown up, it was kind of a wide strip with a ditch on either side with thickets, cattails etc in the ditches. through that field it opened up into open sparce scrub brush rabbit type area... My pup had spent the fall/winter hunting quail and pheasants in similar stuff. She immediately upon going off leash took are hard right to the nearest ditch, crossed it which put her down wind of it and started moving up it parallel to the ditch with the wind blowing across. Basically a perfect move to hunt the ditch. When we turned away from the ditch area I called her back over, and she cut basically a direct line through the crp, still staying to the right which put her downwind of the crp. She did not do much zig sagging. Basically straight line casting. She was moving pretty fast relative to the other dogs that went, but she wasn't moving at her normal speed so I wasn't super stoked about that. But she hunted that cover exactly how I would have wanted her to. She got a 10. I was later told that there was a pretty interesting discussion among the judges about scoring it. If I remember the judges personally had it as a 9 or 11 depending on judge and settled on 10.
I watched dogs in the search never go more then 30yds from handler zig zagging in front like a lab. I watched a dog take a similar line on the ditch to what my dog did and the handler immediately call it back. I watched a dog basically take off at a dead run on a straight line not hunting at all and disappear for a few hrs...and I watched a dog "hunt" for about 10 minutes then sit down and quit.....
I also watched one put on a search that made me drool a little. He did the same initial move that my dog did...But he only went about 2/3rd the way down the ditch. Which is where the cover started to get sparser, he then came out, went straight across the crp to the other ditch and went right up the downwind edge of that one to the end of the field...he then hit the fence line, went up the fence row with thick grass for a bit then broke that off and moved out towards a huge sage brush patch out in the open...putting on the jets going through the dead space inbetween. He got called off before he reached it...and he was a ways out. I think he ended up with a 10 as well. But that dog knew exactly where to go to find the birds and he wasn't going to waste any time farting around. As long as he ended up with good manners on birds he was going to be a super star for putting birds in the bag.... He was awesome the whole test actually, nice coat, kind of a taller, lanky athletic build type of dog, calm friendly, confident demeanor...I'm drooling just thinking about him...anyways....
None of these things could be determined from looking at the test scores. I think most of the dogs in that test scored between 8-10 in search. But the searches were wildly different.

Actually I see a lot of variation in most things. If someone was to ask me what I would bet on buying a DD it is really two things. Coats are pretty good across the board...furnishings vary. And every one that I have seen seem to naturally have a good nose and/or naturally know how to use their nose pretty well.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Rudy Baga » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:50 pm

Sorrry about the spellling.

Once again you asked me to find another breed. You will be very disappointed to know that I think I have found a dog that will produce the dog I described. It will have parents with 10 or above in all categories except search which averages out at 8.5. I think this will put him well above the DD average on scoring total You will be surprised to know that the dogs being bred ranked top 5 and top 20 in the armbruster. If you have a problem with that breeding, take it up with the breeder. I am sure he will have a good laugh at that.

As you suggested, I went back and re-read the thread. I asked if sending a signal to a dog to help with cooperation was allowed during a test. I then responded to the DandB post about hunters wanting 8/9 dogs by saying not many of them were being bred. That should have pleased you. Perhaps your barrage was really directed at him as I don't think anything I said should have triggered it.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby leadeyedbugger » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:53 pm

Again...unless you know exactly why the dog is a 8/9 search dog then its completely irrelevant. It tells you nothing about the pace, range, objective hitting, pattern etc of the dog.....
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Steven » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:32 am

leadeyedbugger wrote:Again...unless you know exactly why the dog is a 8/9 search dog then its completely irrelevant. It tells you nothing about the pace, range, objective hitting, pattern etc of the dog.....


Rudy, leadeyedbugger is correct. You shouldn't assume an 8/9 search means a close working dog. What you described above: high Armbruster performance + 8 search would lead me to think a probable situation was that the dog overran a lot of objectives in the field and didn't do a thorough search of the field . . . . . usually indicative of a dog that is not hunting close, has alot of independence, etc. Now you might say, but it got an 10 in Cooperation . . . . Well, a 10 doesn't tell me a whole lot because it's looks to be the default cooperation score in many cases.

Had you found a dog with an 11 in cooperation and an 8 in search, then I might be inclined to think that dog is a close working, maybe slower moving dog.

The point is . . . be careful drawing conclusions from one score and be sure to test those conclusions by talking to people who saw the performance firsthand. Ask the breeder who judged the dog at that test. If they can't recall, all they have to do is to pull out their score sheet. If they are unwilling to do that, move on. They are trying to tell you what you want to hear.
"A bird dog already wants to find and point birds. It's my job to take nothing away from that and add those little things that WE want them to do. . ." - Maurice Lindley
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby KenDD » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:16 pm

I see a lot of speculation here with regards to scores.... you can have big hard driving dogs that score and 8 or 9 in search and you can have very slow close working methodical searching dogs that can score an 8 or 9 in search. Other dogs can run big and powerful and be an 11 in search and so can the closer working dogs be an 11. Same with cooperation you can have a hard driving big running dog that is a 10-11 in cooperation as well as the opposite a slow close working dog that can score 8-9 in cooperation. Point is you have to see the performance. A number is just that a number and it can be applied to many different types of dogs. There is no cookie cutter approach that says an 8 is this and a 10 is this. All dogs are individuals and you have to take into consideration the overall impression throughout the day. I think what is missing in this discussion is that we are evaluating hunting dogs and for that we need hunting experience and not just base everything on one or two dogs that we have seen in the past. Good dogs are good dogs and get the job done time after time. But they can all be different in their approach. Search is not based on range and neither is cooperation.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:18 pm

Nicely put Ken
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