search in VJP and HZP

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search in VJP and HZP

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:25 pm

I was under impression search in VJP is like search in NAVHDA NA. Perhaps I was wrong....
What are the judges looking for in search in VJP and later in HZP?
(I read the VZPO).
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:46 am

The VJP dog is judged on his desire and persistence to find game. Judges can note how concentrated the dog remains during the search and the pace of the search. Dogs that search a noticeable amount of time at a trot may receive a lower score. This is mentioned specifically in the VZPO when the search is predominantly at a trot. These are puppies...they need to be given some latitude because of inexperience and a little youthful energy.

The HZP search is also judged on desire and persistence but must also exhibit application, or a plan to the search. The older dog should show its ability to work the terrain intelligently and seek out objectives that are likely to hold game. The search should also be more thorough and disciplined.

As always, the conditions and terrain influence the judge's discussion, and hopefully in the context of real hunting.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:14 am

Thank you.

Any consideration given to trained quartering, i.e. zig-zag search?

The older dog should show its ability to work the terrain intelligently and seek out objectives that are likely to hold game


While I agree with the idea, I do have an issue here. My pup was born in August, came to Canada late October.
There were no birds here in the winter and there are no birds here in the summer, no game in the fields at all. She won't have a chance to develop some of the desired attributes until her first hunting season. BTW I don't like to use planted birds more than I must, so won't use them for search development. She will learn to hunt wild birds, but it will be AFTER HZP.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:25 am

I don't know NAVHDA's requirements, but as mentioned earlier the primary focus of the VJP and HZP search is the "will to find".

The HZP furthermore requires the search to be "methodical" and "persistent"... I think this can be interpreted a number of ways, but I think that D&B has described it best as "hunt the terrain". It would be highly inefficient for a dog to "windshield wiper" quarter in a prairie, but I've heard the inexperienced apprentice (and judge) question a search for being "methodical" because it didn't cast back and forth, left to right. Hence, "methodical" does not necessarily mean the pattern of the search in this case... it means efficient, thorough, etc.

I don't see much practicality to "training to zig zag". If I want my pup to zig zag, I zig zag... and she's cooperative enough to watch me change direction after a couple of steps.

I personally don't train to the test... I expose my pup to hunt... I think that when you look at these regulations from the hunting perspective they become easier to interpret and make much more sense.


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Last edited by 3drahthaars on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby gwp4me2 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:30 pm

vom Dufenshmirtz wrote:While I agree with the idea, I do have an issue here. My pup was born in August, came to Canada late October.
There were no birds here in the winter and there are no birds here in the summer, no game in the fields at all. She won't have a chance to develop some of the desired attributes until her first hunting season. BTW I don't like to use planted birds more than I must, so won't use them for search development. She will learn to hunt wild birds, but it will be AFTER HZP.

Sometimes I think we need to adjust from the ideal to our circumstances. While ideally lots of wild birds are best and pen-raised can be a challenge I think less than ideal birds is much better than no birds. Forget the test. Not giving a pup birds until it is 14+ months old will limit its level of performance for life. Pigeons in launchers are better than nothing. At some point a pup needs a reason to search. If the pup never gets a reward for searching? Would you take the pup to the test having never swam or seen a duck?
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Georgia Boy » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:00 pm

I've seen different views on judging search at VJP and even HZP. For me I will gladly take a ding in cooperation and search with a bigger running dog that hunts objectives at the VJP. A dog that hunts back and forth in front of me in shotgun range is about useless.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:43 am

Georgia Boy wrote:I've seen different views on judging search at VJP and even HZP. For me I will gladly take a ding in cooperation and search with a bigger running dog that hunts objectives at the VJP. A dog that hunts back and forth in front of me in shotgun range is about useless.


Next to pointing, I think that Cooporation is the second most misunderstood subject I've seen judged.

I personally don't know how a "big running" dog that takes a change in direction que from a handler on a 100+ yard cast is simply a 10 in cooperation. Really, we're looking for a pup that isn't a self-hunter. And, a dog that is running big needs to work harder to be cooperative and take the zig-zag que from the handler than the one at a shotgun's range or two.

It is what it is... I just personally think we're missing some things in the evaluations sometime(s). It's a shame that some consider it taking a ding when in some cases it is a Coop(+) in my score book.

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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:33 am

I agree with the above in the Cooperation area. Many of the judges I've been around seem almost reluctant to give anything more than a 10 in Cooperation. I've asked a few times during the discussion, "What more could that dog have done to improve it's cooperation?", and been told it did everything exactly like it should have, but didn't show anything "extra". I just had to shake my head.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Rudy Baga » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:38 am

I personally don't know how a "big running" dog that takes a change in direction que from a handler on a 100+ yard cast is simply a 10 in cooperation.


I am a little surprised that a que is allowed to assist the the dog be co-operative. It seems to me a dog that instinctively adjusts to the handler would get a higher score than one that needs to be controlled with ques. I am not familiar with scoring but know that for a hunter, it is preferable to not have to control your dog with a whistle or other que all the time to get him to do what you want.]
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby SMAbby » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:55 am

I think we are talking about "Queing in" on the change of direction by the handler. The dog cant read minds and change direction before the hunter/handler turns. If he did, that would be a high Coop score for sure! :lol: :lol:
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:12 pm

pardon the foreigner, but we're talking about cue, not que, correct? :?:
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby gwp4me2 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:53 pm

Shouldn't 90%+ of dogs tested never have the opportunity to score 11 on most subjects? For me on a very short walk in the field at a test how can a judge really know for sure the real level of the combination of desire/independence/cooperation/search. I would think that you would really need to see a dog in multiple situations and circumstances to identify the 'exceptionally' cooperative dog. 10 is the top score available most of the time and a person should be very happy with it. Maybe to test for 11's the judges should have the handler go hide for a while, put out a cooler of beverages and see if the pup selects the handlers favorite and delivers it to hand without command :D
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Rudy Baga » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:11 pm

Ok Smabby, I think I understand. Your dog TAKES a cue from your movement and always hunts where you want him without any other communication so we give him an eleven. Mine hunts over the hill and never looks for me so we will be generous and give him a seven. I SEND him a que via wireless and he comes back to the the same field I am in. I SEND him another que via wireless and he stays in sight if he feels like it. After about the 4th or 5th SENT cue he starts to read my mind and becomes a 10. I can also read his mind and he thinks I am a PITA for not letting him hunt the way he wants.
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:23 pm

My dog got an 11 in cooperation, I have no idea why. I was so happy It felt wrong to ask...
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: search in VJP and HZP

Postby wisgrouser » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:22 pm

Cooperation is judged throughout the test not just in the search field. Dogs can give very subtle signals to the handler and judges during the test to indicate it's level of cooperation. Often a twitch of the ear, quick glance, slight hear movement, lick of the lips can clue us (judges) into how and what the dog thinks of the handler and how it works with him/her.
"Gun goes up, bird comes down...sometimes."
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