Vswpo/VFsPO

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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:55 pm

Yes same here. Yet another reason to track at night on deer, where available sign and best judgement suggest are likely dead and just need to be recovered.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:24 pm

In my area, leaving a deer until morning means the coyotes get to eat and you don't. Since we hunt for meat first and horns second, waiting for daylight is not an option.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:39 pm

I do some of both.

I have shot deer where I knew I had a poor placement, but eventually certain lethal hit (e.g. stomach, guts) on a evening hunt. Those deer can commonly take 12 hours (sometimes more, seldom less) to die. For those deer, I wait until daylight. I take my chances with the coyotes vs the very predictable high odds that tracking sooner will jump the deer up out its bed, the dog chases in hot pursuit, likely onto properties I do not have permission, worse out of hearing, towards roads, I can't legally carry a weapon to dispatch the deer ... I'll take my chances with the coyotes vs that, is the way I lean for those specific situations.

Those that are hit well, I always track after the appropriate waiting period, day or night.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:50 am

I didn't rant at all,I'm trying to describe the situation how it is here and find or try to explain the reasoningfor the change in VSWPO which is defenately not made to suite the NA deerhunter but should match as good as possible with hunting conditions laws and ethics in germany and as I already mentioned its completely different and to to compare one on one!!!!!
Best excample a ban to carry a firearm while bloodtrailing :shock: I mean and hope you agree that is plain bull$#*!,but not my business.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:27 am

Yep it is a bad law.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby DDGUY » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:57 am

The handler will be shown a spot where the shot came from, and an approximate area (30 X 30m) visibly marked at the corners where the animal was hit, and an approximate direction the animal fled. The handler and his dog on lead will search for the spot within the 30 X 30 area. When they find the spot the handler "should" identify the game species, which means there will be hair. Then the handler will start the track from there. I believe all existing regulations apply as to call backs etc. If the handler and his dog cannot find the spot within 15 minutes, or if the dog leads the handler 80 meters on some different track etc., the judges will show the starting spot to the handler. There is an automatic predicate deduction. From this point on in order to pass, the handler and his dog must work the track to the end completely on their own with no help from the judges. I take this to mean if the dog and handler get too far off the track there will not be a call back. If they get lost they will have to search for the track on their own. These are the changes as I understand them from JGHV.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:57 am

DDGUY wrote:The handler will be shown a spot where the shot came from, and an approximate area (30 X 30m) visibly marked at the corners where the animal was hit, and an approximate direction the animal fled. The handler and his dog on lead will search for the spot within the 30 X 30 area. When they find the spot the handler "should" identify the game species, which means there will be hair. Then the handler will start the track from there. I believe all existing regulations apply as to call backs etc. If the handler and his dog cannot find the spot within 15 minutes, or if the dog leads the handler 80 meters on some different track etc., the judges will show the starting spot to the handler. There is an automatic predicate deduction. From this point on in order to pass, the handler and his dog must work the track to the end completely on their own with no help from the judges. I take this to mean if the dog and handler get too far off the track there will not be a call back. If they get lost they will have to search for the track on their own. These are the changes as I understand them from JGHV.


There is one major point which I had a differnt understanding from the info in the seminar!
Nobody said,that if the dog/handler team will not find the "Anschuss " (starting point) and also not the track (it is sure possible that the dog finds the track several yards away from the Anschuss) that the judges show the handler the Anschuss :shock: :?




If the team wouldn't find either one,its a clear fail to my understanding,cause in a real hunting situation it would be the same as well,cause the hunter couldn't provide any further info in that case either!
If the team finds the track without the Anschuss it may/should lower the predicate even without any callback! It was also pointed out that not only call backs can/should lower the predicate (excactly like we did judge according to the old PO)
Bad teamwork undesired pace poor working style (unfocused high nose free search and lots of other negatives ) will defenately lead to a lower predicate!
If the track starts without finding the Anschuss and is heading in a wrong direction it leads to the first call back and if the handler didn't show any blood before to the judges he needs to find The/a,startingpoint all by himself with his dog again!
Since their wasn't anything said about showing the handler the Anschuss after a complete fail in the 15 min timeframe (which wouldn't really make any sense to me cause finding nothing is just that NOTHING!!!) there has been no further info,that if that would be the case (showing the Anschuss to the team) they had to complete without any callbacks from start to finish!
This would logically include the decission for a predicate Preis II cause showing the Anschuss equals one call back (theoretically) and if the rest is finished inperfect manners:
I think their is a lot of open questions and needs for seminars to get anything clear for unigue judging before the new PO will be the old PO :?
Thanks Lynn, for your constructive input and assistance to try to get things straight which seem or might be questionable!
:wink: :!:
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:12 am

This is an example that highlights the difference between Germany and here. When our German colleagues speak of the Anschuss, there has been a 150 grains of lead launched at 800 meters/sec. and there is blood, hair and maybe even bone on the ground. Here there are many bow and arrow hunters and you may be lucky to find 3 hairs and a blood trail starts first after 50 yards.

I have tracked deer under such circumstances (and a bear once) and I would be VERY pleased if my dog indicated the track of the animal, because the Anschuss may not be detectable...at least not by any German colleague :oops: :wink:
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:09 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:This is an example that highlights the difference between Germany and here. When our German colleagues speak of the Anschuss, there has been a 150 grains of lead launched at 800 meters/sec. and there is blood, hair and maybe even bone on the ground. Here there are many bow and arrow hunters and you may be lucky to find 3 hairs and a blood trail starts first after 50 yards.

I have tracked deer under such circumstances (and a bear once) and I would be VERY pleased if my dog indicated the track of the animal, because the Anschuss may not be detectable...at least not by any German colleague :oops: :wink:


I'm sure you are a great bloodtrailing expert and have the dogs to get the job done even if someone would shoot at game with a slingshot 8)
But forgive me with my dump ignorance,but I really doubt that your expertise can match with those of a professional bloodtrailerhere in germany with a breed designed ,trained and bred for nothing else than bloodtrailing.
So about me personnally I'm everything but an avid experienced bloodtrailer and would if necessary depend on the knowledge and experience of a pro!
But since you stated the situation here almost correct,we have the big advantage to either find the Anschuß due to a approbriate bullet used or we have the pro close by to call him!
But all this is a bit off topic,cause I already mentioned in my above post that the new VSWPO is defenately not designed and discussed and sanctioned to match the needs of the NA deerhunter muzzleloader bow or rifle!
So all you can do is live with it use it and learn how to interpret it correct to do every dog tested, justice with correct and unigue judging 8)
But all this affects you only indirectly cause as far as I know you are not yet Sonderrichter Schweiß :wink: or did I miss here something :?:
So for you and your concerns it will at best become interesting as a handler and here you have even more simply to live with it and except it :|
Auch Dir mein Freund vielen Dank für Deinen konstruktiven Beitrag,valuable informative and productive as always :wink: :idea:
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:43 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:This is an example that highlights the difference between Germany and here. When our German colleagues speak of the Anschuss, there has been a 150 grains of lead launched at 800 meters/sec. and there is blood, hair and maybe even bone on the ground. Here there are many bow and arrow hunters and you may be lucky to find 3 hairs and a blood trail starts first after 50 yards.

I have tracked deer under such circumstances (and a bear once) and I would be VERY pleased if my dog indicated the track of the animal, because the Anschuss may not be detectable...at least not by any German colleague :oops: :wink:


But, a majority of shots are from an elevated stand, and they are pass throughs...

Hence, there is a very nice artifact at the Anschuss, "the arrow". And, for the most part it has blood enough to determine the degree of the wound.

I think that the changes are challenging, not necessarily exactly like NA hunting culture, but I also think that they will separate out some of those just looking to pass a test vs. those who really want to develop a working dog. Besides decent judges are going to make it fair but conforming to the protocol as closely as practical... anyone who has laid a blood track knows that they are conservative to the benefit of the dogs in most cases. If it's dabbed there are dabs on stones, snags, large leaves, etc. We don't try to screw the handlers.

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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby DDGUY » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:01 pm

3drahthaars wrote:anyone who has laid a blood track knows that they are conservative to the benefit of the dogs in most cases. If it's dabbed there are dabs on stones, snags, large leaves, etc. We don't try to screw the handlers.3ds


Do you mean the benefit of the dogs, or the handler? Visible blood doesn't benefit the dog. I agree that there should be some visible blood occasionally to boost the morale of the handler, but it can be taken too far. I have seen VGP tracks that Stevie Wonder could follow. Too many handlers rely on seeing blood to know they are on the track, when they would be much better off trusting their dog.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby DDGUY » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:18 pm

Wolf I am going by the publication sent to North American clubs from JGHV. I don't know who does the translations, but it clearly says that if the handler/dog team can't find the Anschuß within 15 minutes, the judges will show it to the handler and there is an automatic predicate deduction. I guess we will see when the PO comes out. I think with a little different training regimen it won't be that difficult. I don't think the new regulations are that contrary to NA hunting situations. Serious trackers are often called to find a wounded animal they didn't shoot themselves. Many times the hunter or his buddies in the excitement have forgot exactly where the animal stood when it was shot. It isn't that uncommon to have to search an area to pick up the track.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:00 pm

DDGUY wrote:Wolf I am going by the publication sent to North American clubs from JGHV. I don't know who does the translations, but it clearly says that if the handler/dog team can't find the Anschuß within 15 minutes, the judges will show it to the handler and there is an automatic predicate deduction. I guess we will see when the PO comes out. I think with a little different training regimen it won't be that difficult. I don't think the new regulations are that contrary to NA hunting situations. Serious trackers are often called to find a wounded animal they didn't shoot themselves. Many times the hunter or his buddies in the excitement have forgot exactly where the animal stood when it was shot. It isn't that uncommon to have to search an area to pick up the track.


That's interessting cause U.Tabel used an overhead projector and went through the new unprinted but sanctioned and almost ready for the print version step by step and I can't remeber reading anything that would match your translation :shock: :?:
On the other hand I cannot imagine ,that the person who did the translation was soaking something out of his fingers which wasn't on paper?
I'm curious to see how it turns out and what we got in print in the final version.
I totally agree with you,that with some additional training it isn't that difficult to find the Anschuss cause you have the flag marked 30x30 spot and it MUST be in it somewhere and a well trained dog with some practise under his belt should find it easily and the less experienced dog with a at least somehow experienced handler should find the track by just checking all foer sides of the 30x30 spot,cause the tracklayer won't FLY out of it :wink: !

Bob you shouldn't take D&B's posts too serious,he is always good for some ankle biting that's in no way unusual for little dogs who can't lift their little leg and wonna go pee with the big dogs ,he loves to get off topic and put words in some peoples mouth they never said or turn facts into the opposite of what has been mentioned ,but atleast he also seems to enjoy to get some a$$ kicking when he got nailed and detected with bullshitting! :wink:
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