Vswpo/VFsPO

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Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:41 pm

Attended a seminar today and we got educated by Uwe tabel according to new Vswpo and VFsPO which has been sanctioned in Fulda in feb and is almost ready to print.
One of the major changes is that judges don't lead you to the starting point of the track (Anschuß),but instead will show you from the point were a simulated hunter fired a shot and 50 yards ahead there is a suare spot 30x30 meters were the starting point should be and handler and dog have to find it in a time frame of 15 minutes and than start the actual tracking from there.
That's quite a bit more challenging compared to the old PO.Judging is also a bit different cause now it's almost like the "Vorsuche" of the Schweißhund clubs.
But its also more likely to be compared with bloodtracking in a natural hunting situation were more than once the hunter is not 100% sure were the animal stood when it got hit.
What's your opinion about the change do you think its beneficial for the JGHV testing system to provide well prepared handler/dog teams for real bloodtracking or have you been confident and happy with the old PO and wouldn't have seen any needs for a change?
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:56 pm

Wolf,

We've discussed before how there are differences between "test" dogs and hunting dogs.

My personal feeling is that the sterile single anshuss of a test along with the great amount of disturbed earth (track) makes a test track significantly easier than the real thing. The real life area of a shot and the blood, flesh, and entrails that get scattered can cover a radius of several yards... something that a dog has to learn to cipher for himself.

I know personally of an "expert" DD tracker who cussed out a fellow VDD member and his 12yr old son for walking all over a track and disturbing it so no dog (not even his dog) could have had a chance to find the kid's first deer.

In reality, most tracks have been disturbed before anyone calls the guy with the dog, eh? A Teckel buddy of mine in Germany says this is what separates the testers from the real hunters.

I think this is a very good change. One of the few that I've seen that had some "teeth" in that it was truly closer (not exactly mind you) to a real world situation.

Best regards,

Bob
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby huntinmo » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:08 pm

"50 yards ahead there is a suare spot 30x30 meters were the starting point should be and handler and dog have to find it in a time frame of 15 minutes and than start the actual tracking from there."
Is the dog permitted to find the starting point off lead or must the dog remain on lead while the handler searches for the spot? :? :?:
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:56 am

huntinmo wrote:"50 yards ahead there is a suare spot 30x30 meters were the starting point should be and handler and dog have to find it in a time frame of 15 minutes and than start the actual tracking from there."
Is the dog permitted to find the starting point off lead or must the dog remain on lead while the handler searches for the spot? :? :?:


There is no printed version available right now were its clearely defined ,but I would say dog must be on lead. And its not the handlers job to find the "Anschuss" its the dogs job to show the handler were it is.
The handlers job is to "read" the signs like hair,split bone parts blood etc.


Bob,
I agree,real bloodtracks are usually criss crossed by the hunter trying to find signs of the track,or the Anschuss and so the addition to the new PO makes sense.
The Co instructer of this seminar was Mr Reinhard Scherr he is president of BGS-Club and avid and active bloodtrailer (Nachsuchenführer) and is profession is Förster (forest warden) in an area were they harvest big numbers of hooved game.
He explained the practicel part of this seminar from a pro's point of view.
He said most of his bloodtracking gets started after the hunter and buddies and their own dogs tried to get the job done,but couldn't accomplish it! So the professional dog has to deal with lots of footprints and tracks of another dog beside all the other distractions (Verleitungen)
He showed us pics of harvested animals which didn't have lethal shots and the tracks exceeded 1000 yards and got bayed up and shot by the pro bloodtracker.
Interesting stuff,but not my cup of tea,especially because I lack physical fitness to get that job done in the steep mountains and dense cover of briars and stuff.
In his statistics he didn't mention aor keep records of those bloodtracks less than 100 yards which he calls "Bergehilfe" help to drag the carcass to the vehicle :)
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby huntinmo » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:26 am

"There is no printed version available right now were its clearely defined ,but I would say dog must be on lead. And its not the handlers job to find the "Anschuss" its the dogs job to show the handler were it is.
The handlers job is to "read" the signs like hair,split bone parts blood etc."

Agreed that a printed version if translated correctly would probably help. However it appears that for actual testing this will amount to an additional 50m of onlead tracking of the foot scent of the judges to the "Anschuss" where the handler must "read" the dog and the dog's reaction to the signs that you mention. It will be interesting to see what is required of the handler at this point. :)
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby DDGUY » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:43 pm

I have watched the development of these rule changes for the past couple of years. I agree that the new change to require the dog and handler to find the start of the track is more hunt like than the old way, but it will be more challenging. I don't believe the track of the judge(s) is that significant at 20+ hours.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:56 pm

huntinmo wrote:"There is no printed version available right now were its clearely defined ,but I would say dog must be on lead. And its not the handlers job to find the "Anschuss" its the dogs job to show the handler were it is.
The handlers job is to "read" the signs like hair,split bone parts blood etc."

Agreed that a printed version if translated correctly would probably help. However it appears that for actual testing this will amount to an additional 50m of onlead tracking of the foot scent of the judges to the "Anschuss" where the handler must "read" the dog and the dog's reaction to the signs that you mention. It will be interesting to see what is required of the handler at this point. :)


In actual fact, it more mimics the real situation as Wolf and I alluded where the hunters track all over the Anschuss and the dog has to sort the track out. The VFsPO might be easier for the dog to focus, assuming only the judge wearing the shoes will work the begining.

Not sure of the details of the change, but I'm thinking of doing the 24hr track with my pup, and I'm not intimidated by a rule that will better prepare a dog for the real world.

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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Ritter » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:02 pm

well in our "real world" hunting situations around our neck of the woods, it is understood that NOBODY is to follow into the woods looking for the deer. It is what has been said before. The ethical hunter is to know "where" the arrow hit, "where" his bullet hit, WHAT two trees did the animal run between, WHAT was the EXACT direction the animal ran and how far did you see it go. You are "allowed" in our neck of the woods, to get off your stand, go to those EXACT same two trees, hang your glove or hat on that tree and then GET YOUR A$$ back in the tree and wait for the dog. ONLY when the dog shows up are you allowed to go to the spot where your glove is hanging, then you get your A$$ back up in the tree stand and direct the handler as best you can as far as you can from your memory of where the deer went. But then again, that's how we do a "real" hunting situation. Why do I want the handler and dog walking aimlessly around the woods because the "hunter" / "Judge" say the deer whet "kinda that a way". Guess according to some, we been a hunting wrong in our neck of the woods all these years, and recovering those wall hangers wrong.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby bwana_don » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:25 pm

Ritter, curious what neck of the woods you are hunting, where I hunt we are not allowed to use dogs to track yet (hopefully that will change).

I have a son who is red/green color blind and knowing he could use a dog to track his game would make a world of difference. He showed me where he shot his first deer when he was 14, I said great! Now track the blood, he said what blood, I was dumbfounded. It looked like a murder scene, blood on brown leaves. Interestingly, he has no problem tracking blood from bears at night on green grass. The good news, there might be some new glasses available that will help him see colors as the rest of us do in daylight.

I believe the hunter, the dog and the handlers are working as a team. The majority of time, a blood trail of some sort is found and usually not at the point of impact. For fun we may track back to the shot, but that is a waste of time most of the time. A dog finding the starting point great! But that does not seem like reality in my world. The hunter will have already found some blood, walked the trail for some distance and then lost it. I have not done the test in the old format, but it sounds more like the normal experience. I look forward to attempting the new test in a year.

I'm curious about the process for designing changes like this one. Are the changes tested before they are adopted? What is the intent of the change? Depending on the type of hunting people do and the locations where they hunt, it might reflect reality, it might not. Seems like this one is raising the bar for the dog, the handler and training. Hopefully the test can be laid relatively consistently from test to test, seems like the variability of placing the starting point within the box could cause some issues. Given enough time, we will all figure out how to adapt to the test and train for it. Hopefully people will be willing to share what works and what doe not,
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:24 am

again a big difference between old and new world.
Deer shot in NA always during daylight where you can see and mark everything.
Most bloodtrailing here boar at night,pitch dark you ain't see nothing and may only with some luck know to which feeding spot the animal stood pretty close.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:12 pm

It is quite common to blood trail deer in the dark in NA. Deer shot thru the guts or stomach at dawn should not be tracked for 12 hours, which then results in after dark tracking, and deer shot at dusk will nearly always result in after dark trailing.

As far as whether the dog can be started at the right point, without a lot of prior disturbance I have experienced both and expect others do as well. I bow hunt and use my dog when I need him. I know better than to disturb any portion of the track, including the site where the deer was when I shot it, and I don't. I also take detailed mental notes of where the deer was standing, where I was when I shot, and the last landmark I had visual on the deer as it exited. So those are the ideal conditions for starting the dog.

And then there are those instances where someone does everything opposite of my explicit prior instructions. And those instances at worst are similar to the description of the newly modified test. So I can see value in greater difficulty of only having a vague notion of where to start the dog to simulate the tracks where the hunters do not do their job as we would wish and instruct them to do. Some people just don't follow instructions.

In my experience neither has been the most major factor in whether the deer was ultimately recovered, but rather non mortal hits is what results in no deer recovered. With training I think good dogs recover near 100% of mortally wounded deer.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Wolfgang » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:51 pm

The point is that you always SHOOT during daylight and can see and mark lots of the surrounding were the animal stood while arrow or bullet hits! As you said you can remember certain trees or other spots you can remember.
You may even see at least when bowhunting were the hit is.here in germany 90% of shots while boarhunting is at night and you can barely see the animal,leave alone anything of its surrounding.
BTW tracking at night is not very smart and defenately not effective and your reasons to do so aint either!
If you shoot early in the morning you can start tracking 2-3 hours before daylight is fading away and if you shoot just before dark,you can wait until daylight it doesen't make any difference for the animal,but your success rate is more than 50% higher if done during daylight and with the right dog there is absolutely no reason to loose a gut shoot deer if the handler and the dog knows their business!Tracking gut or leg or other none lethal shots requires a big sharp dog which can after a start on leash can when the animal is found in a wound bed chase,catch and draw down.
Not a single professional bloodtrailer (schweißhundeführer) would start a track at night,after he founds the starting point (Anschuss) and can see from hair blood bone fragments or whatever that it isn't a lethal shot
What you described is the worst beginners fault of the average Joe puplic who knows everything about nothing and makes every Schweißhundeführer upset and feels pissed when the guy who shot is messing everything up when fooling around at night with his own dog and than after that calls the pro to get it fixed!
But this is how the situation is here and it maybe different abroad 8) :shock: Andere Länder andere Sitten! (different countries,different ways to approach)
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:13 pm

Well I don't speak german so cannot follow some of your rant, Wolf.

I have never hunted boar, day or night. But I have done a good bit of predator hunting in the dark. Only a fool has no ability to mark where they were when they shot as well as have a reasonable perspective of where the animal was when they shot it.

As far as starting a track on a gut shot deer sooner than 12 hours. I won't. You can do what you want. My dogs have recovered 100% of gut shot deer I have put them on, so we agree on that, and that is precisely why I wait long enough to ensure the deer is dead. Jumping it up out its bed may well result in a lost vs recovered deer.

The dog I have now has encountered and recovered leg shot deer. And he took it down. Hence why I refer to him as a wirewolf. But in NA it is most often not legal to carry a weapon when tracking deer, therefore another reason to wait long enough for the deer to expire if you can, as we cannot assist the dog with a firearm in the event the deer is alive.

As far as whether I know anything. I am comfortable I do. I have hunted for approaching 50 years now. I personally have taken whitetail, mule deer, elk, turkeys, antelope and small game with a bow, with over 100 archery big game animals in total thus far. If I have not learned something about blood tracking by now, I never will.

Rant on if you need to. I was just trying to add something to the conversation.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:20 pm

Should have added, I like to eat what I shoot. Unless I think starting the track in the dark has a good chance of jumping a live deer out of its bed, I absolutely will track in the dark in order to recover the deer, dress it and get good meat in the process. Leaving a deer laying overnight with the guts in it is never my preference if I think the deer is likely expired and just needs to be recovered.

If we have valuable information to exchange, then great, lets do it. If instead you want to rant and belittle someone you don't even know, then I will quickly bow out.
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Re: Vswpo/VFsPO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:48 pm

You guys must not have the coyote problems we have. Two of my 3 bow kills this year had coyotes on them before I got to them. Both were found within 4 hours of the shot.
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