HZP Question

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: HZP Question

Postby marjolein » Fri May 29, 2015 6:53 am

Freeze wrote:I would like to see your response from your perspective in Germany of dogs taking the VGP (clearly a test requiring extensive formal training) in the same year they take their VJP.


-Freeze


This is not apreciated at all by a whole lot of judges. They prefer the handler takes some time to let the dog develop. I do agree about not doing too much prior to the VJP. After all, it's about natural ability, not about trainability.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri May 29, 2015 6:58 am

Wolf, I whole hearted agree with your statement about "domestic" birds for field work... I think that we discussed JGHV Merkblatt 3, and how it dealt with this "situation". I too agree with the "bird field" observation... as the dog should have the opportunity to show that it can locate game on its own to get the full value of a search evaluation (in addition to the will to find).

As for the domestic rabbits, I can speak for a number of US handlers in that we felt that our native cottontails were too small for the "spirit" of the test compared to your European hare... and we made the effort to get rabbits that we felt made the test worthy. This in most cases wasn't an attempt to bias in our favor, and I've seen rabbits exceed the size of foxes at HZP.

Lastly, I too postpone any whoa or steadiness training until after HZP... my feeling is that as a breeder you want to see what you are truly turning out and how it matures through that first 18 months... and there's a lot of intellectual, emotional, and physical changes between ages 12mo and 18-24mo. Some hunters of preserve game however whoa train for safety, some people do it to insure a minimum "10" on a dog with sketchy pointing instincts.

Good discussion...


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Re: HZP Question

Postby Chadwick » Fri May 29, 2015 8:04 am

A lot of the use of planted birds and domestic bunnies has to do with seasons, availability, and where dogs are allowed to be trained during the year.

In Minnesota, no dogs are allowed on DNR administered land from April 16 to July 14. Many private land owners do not want people training dogs on their property for many different reasons.

In Minnesota, the 2 main game birds are pheasant and ruffed grouse. Until the first frost, trying to see a dog in ruffed grouse habit in order to judge it would be challenging. The pheasants are often in the cattails, thick slough grass, or standing corn and again it is very difficult to see the dogs.

The cottontail population can fluctuate dramatically and the season runs from mid-September until the end of February in MN. So if a person did not find and stockpile enough during last season or if you run out during training, then you either use a domestic rabbit or break the law and shoot a cottontail out of season. Some people use roadkill, but that is not very dependable often in very poor condition. It may even be illegal to pick up roadkill in some places.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Wolfgang » Fri May 29, 2015 8:26 am

Chadwick wrote:A lot of the use of planted birds and domestic bunnies has to do with seasons, availability, and where dogs are allowed to be trained during the year.

In Minnesota, no dogs are allowed on DNR administered land from April 16 to July 14. Many private land owners do not want people training dogs on their property for many different reasons.

In Minnesota, the 2 main game birds are pheasant and ruffed grouse. Until the first frost, trying to see a dog in ruffed grouse habit in order to judge it would be challenging. The pheasants are often in the cattails, thick slough grass, or standing corn and again it is very difficult to see the dogs.

The cottontail population can fluctuate dramatically and the season runs from mid-September until the end of February in MN. So if a person did not find and stockpile enough during last season or if you run out during training, then you either use a domestic rabbit or break the law and shoot a cottontail out of season. Some people use roadkill, but that is not very dependable often in very poor condition. It may even be illegal to pick up roadkill in some places.


Chad,
we have off season for rabbitts too and I put them in the deepfreezer when harvested in hunting season and I have attended VJP more than once with a dog that I have never seen point on a wild bird because they are more than rare and in the tall grass or reeds in the summer or fall before VJP.So that gives me a clear picture about his natural ability when scenting and eventually pointing his first bird on test day. I sure may have to live with a good or less than that predicate due to lack of exposure.

Bob I personnally wouldn't have much of a problem to train the dragpart with domestic rabbitts,but its the VZPO clearly states for the test Hase oder Kaninchen and there is no wheight limit and 99;9% here test with rabbits sometimes young adults not even full grown,so I wouldn't be to much worried about the size of a cottontail.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri May 29, 2015 11:40 am

At the Hegewald, my dog was the first in the field to search for pheasant (wild). When he pointed, the judge asked me to hook him up without flushing the bird if possible. The next dog was allowed to search the area and pointed the same bird (or at the same place) and a cock bird did flush with this dog on point. I guess this would be knowing where the bird is but the judges were judging point, not search. Each dog was given several searches in mixed cover from grass to hedgerows, overgrown pasture, etc. and each located its "own" game for evaluation. We had points on rabbit and bedded down deer as well.

I have been to many a VJP years back in Germany where the wild pheasants behaved more like pen raised birds. I remember being at a test in Eitting (Southern Bayern) where we drove into the edge of the fields and watched a "herd" of pheasant not 75 yds from the car feeding. They finally did disperse but were clearly accustomed to the presence of people.

I have attended VJP more than once with a dog that I have never seen point on a wild bird


While I respect this approach, I would be unwilling to wait so long to assess a dog's natural ability. I take young dogs to ND the first season and walk with a broken gun. I expect to see natural caution and pointing very soon. Dog's have been FF by this time so that I can shoot a few birds when the pup starts to hold point. This experience during the puppy season is crucial, IMO as well as a few 'easy" ducks in the decoys and a real blood track if possible. Bow hunters near my camp have called me even when they know where the deer is just to give me an opportunity with a pup.

Maybe this is "training" for a test, but my goal is hunting dog. The test doesn't tell me if I am keeping a dog....its early reactions as a puppy do.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri May 29, 2015 11:53 am

Freeze wrote:Wolfgang,

I have never heard of a test where the handler knew the location of the bird ... Although if only one bird is used for all dogs handlers 2 through 5 would know!

I am not sure what you are trying to imply about whoa training and testing for pointing. I have been in 1 VJP and witnessed another (admittedly a very small sample size). During pointing the handlers were instructed to remain absolutely silent until the dog established point and the judges made their assessment. Once I was told to leash my dog I believe I would have been permitted to whoa my dog, although I my case that was unnecessary. I silently walked to my dog and clipped on the leash.

As far as the HZP I cannot imagine not having a dog whoa broke by the time they ran the test. One of the things that drew me to the DD was the fact that they generally mature quickly and can take the pressure of training at an early age.

Also it seems far more common in Germany that a pup be tested in VGP the same year they run the HZP. If that is the case I find it unlikely that whoa training is not in place for those dogs during the VJP. It is hard for me to imagine that a pup has no formal whoa training at all when tested in VJP and then is fully broke and reliably steady to wing, shot and fall 4 months later in the VGP.

My intent of the question was not to start a Germany vs. NA debate, I was only seeking guidance as I prepare for the HZP.


-Freeze


About "whoa: we judged a pup a while back trained by a "preserve" hunter who did a little guiding... dog was broke and absolutely no questions about it... "10". You get a dog with 10X the drive as point, work the e-collar "magic" and he'll "point" with such intensity that it will look like he is a statue (just waiting for the flush or whatever his release is). That's why a moving bird or visible one helps filter some things out.

As for VGP in the same year as HZP, I believe that someone maybe Tabel suggested that we should wait an extra year or two to allow a pup to mature for VGP. There are cultural reasons to test early, there are technical reasons (to see if the younger dog can take the pressure), and personally I prefer to let my pups mature, because I see a lot of emotional changes between HZP and 3 or 4 years old that I like and don't wish to take the risk to influence negatively. I'm more patient than some, and I prefer a slower maturing pup, and I find that my method works for the temperament of pup that I like.

I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong... it's basically up to the preference of the owner... because, he is ultimately going to be who's hunting over the pup and living with it in the off season.

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Re: HZP Question

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Fri May 29, 2015 8:52 pm

providing the fact to nail your balls to the barn door!


LMAO, but W is right :)
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