HZP Question

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HZP Question

Postby Freeze » Wed May 27, 2015 7:17 pm

In preparing for the HZP I have read the VZPO several times but cannot find the answer.

I have noticed that many of the HZP tests require the handler to bring their own drag game.

1. I assume that a mature mallard duck would be considered acceptable, because I got to see the game used in the 2014 Armbruster. However I am curious to know if other species of ducks are acceptable? Also is there is a minimum required weight for the duck?

2. Can a cottontail rabbit be used for the hare drag? What about the use of domestic rabbits? Is there a minimum weight for the game used during the rabbit/hare drag?

Sorry for the dumb question, but I want to have the pup prepared.
Also, I see in the VGPO that the minimum weight for the fox is clearly defined.


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Re: HZP Question

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed May 27, 2015 8:09 pm

Freeze,

Even the tests that may provide game won't guarantee the condition of it.

As a general rule, it is in the handler's best interest to bring at the minimum his own game for the hare/rabbit drag. One or two depending on your option to drag/drop. And, as you have discovered there's no weight requirement for the rabbit/hare like the VGP fox... only the fox or equivalent substitute has a weight requirement.

If you aren't sure, you'd be smart to bring game for both feather and fur drags.

Usually, ducks will be used for the feather drags as they can be re-utilized for the gun sensitivity and blind retrieves. But, it's best to contact the Test Director directly to make absolutely sure that you understand what is expected of you and what will be provided at the test.

In lieu of drag the retrieve of the freshly shot game bird is sometimes done, and this has to be announced in the test announcement. I used to think this was a big deal since it must be done with out a "retrieve" command. But, my pup basically performed the task on our first sharptail a couple of years ago. It was a cripple from the previous evening... so, I do not consider it a big deal for a decent dog.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Good luck,

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Re: HZP Question

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed May 27, 2015 9:52 pm

Domestic rabbits are usually not acceptable at a test as they are not game. All the rabbits I have seen at the HZP here in the US and Germany were good sized cottontails. IMO....don't use too small a rabbit....too easy to play with. Whatever you do in training, do the exact same thing at the test.

Bring fresh dead mallards, birds that will float and feel like shot game. My rule of thumb is if you wouldn't be willing to clean it and eat it, its not game. Leave the stinkers at home.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Freeze » Thu May 28, 2015 5:41 am

3Ds and D&B .....Thank you both.
I appreciate the advice.

D&B
That is a good rule of thumb for maintaining a standard for the quality of the game.


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Re: HZP Question

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu May 28, 2015 6:49 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:Domestic rabbits are usually not acceptable at a test as they are not game. All the rabbits I have seen at the HZP here in the US and Germany were good sized cottontails. IMO....don't use too small a rabbit....too easy to play with. Whatever you do in training, do the exact same thing at the test.

Bring fresh dead mallards, birds that will float and feel like shot game. My rule of thumb is if you wouldn't be willing to clean it and eat it, its not game. Leave the stinkers at home.


Rather than take the vague statement of "... usually not acceptable..." I reiterate that if in doubt call the Test Director as he will make the final call.

In reality, no judge will refuse the "game" that you bring for a drag. In 19 years of judging, to paraphrase... I've seen at HZP all pedegrees and sizes of rabbits presented by handlers for drags. If "game" was the literal requirement I guarantee that the 9#, black rabbit that I saw at a test that I judged would have been disqualified. The only strict requirement by PO for ANY drag is the weight and allowable modifications of the tail, viscera and head of a fox.

For the "feather" drag you can use a duck or pheasant... whichever you have access to or is more affordable.

Again, caution to opinionated statements... attention to the Prufung Ordnung (i.e. the regulations). And, the Test Director makes the final decision... CALL him!

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Re: HZP Question

Postby Steven » Thu May 28, 2015 9:49 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:Domestic rabbits are usually not acceptable at a test as they are not game. All the rabbits I have seen at the HZP here in the US and Germany were good sized cottontails. IMO....don't use too small a rabbit....too easy to play with. Whatever you do in training, do the exact same thing at the test.

Bring fresh dead mallards, birds that will float and feel like shot game. My rule of thumb is if you wouldn't be willing to clean it and eat it, its not game. Leave the stinkers at home.


At both my HZP and VGP (and every single training day I've attended for that matter), all of the rabbits except for mine were domestic rabbits. In fact, my cottontail was good-naturedly made fun of by the Senior Judge because it was so much smaller than those fluffy white rabbits others were using.

So . . . . I guess you'd better ask.

I find drag game I like and put it back in the freezer to use for my tests. I will pull it out and use it once or twice in training before the test . . . . I almost have to because by that time, the dog is so used to training on pretty worn out and rank game that one in new condition may be a curve ball I don't want to risk.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Duckdog17 » Thu May 28, 2015 10:02 am

I used a domestic rabbit at our HZP this year. If it's easier for you to obtain a domestic, I would call your test director to make sure, and then just buy one.

As far as the feathered drag, I used a pheasant. No REAL reason, but he always seemed just a tiny bit more excited about pheasant scent, and I wanted to give him as much advantage as I could.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Georgia Boy » Thu May 28, 2015 11:43 am

Only once have I seen drag game refused by a judge at an hzp, it was a rabbit that was in pretty bad condition and the handler had cut the ears off for some reason? I too have seen many domestic rabbits used even some about the size of a squirrel :lol:
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Re: HZP Question

Postby largefrag » Thu May 28, 2015 12:02 pm

best advice...call the test director.

If you bring your game, make sure it is in good condition and not too rank, otherwise the judges may refuse to let you use it.

In my exxperience, If you bring your own duck, any wild type species in normally fine.

In regards to wild rabbits versus domesticated...usually either is fine. I can tell you for a fact domesticated rabbits were supplied and sold to handlers for drag game by the TD and TC at the Armbruster the year we ran it.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Wolfgang » Thu May 28, 2015 3:05 pm

I'm always surprised to hear about the "changes" in VZPO which seem to be normal and the rule in NA compared to germany and accepted by JGHV :!: :oops: :shock:
Its clearly defined § 15 Verlorenbringen von federwild und Schleppenarbeit (2) Huhn (fasan)
§15 (4) Bringen auf der FEDER WILD Schleppe!!!!! For those who are not familiar with the exact translation Federwild means all kind of feathered game which is harvested as food (normally I know rednecks eat everything they kill or find even roadkill :lol: )
This means for us in germany Ente Fasan taube Huhn just to name the most common gamebirds! No crows ,buzzards or egg laying hens or anything like that.
Same rules for feathered game
§15 (5) a die haarwildschleppe ist mit hase oder kaninchen zu legen like already said before from another poster domestic animals aren't game and not acceptable according to HZP (at least in the country of origin)
But there are so many eceptions to the rule made for NA that it really doesn't surprise me to hear about using domestic animals for GAME drags!
Pointing on penraised planted birds,one bird used for all dogs in one testgroup vs a field stuffed with planted birds each handler knows were the planted bird is,whoa trained dogs for testing INHERITED pointing ability, spurarbeit with rabbitts or Running phez (Fasanengeläuf),Fuchs über Hinderniss with coon (that's one of the very few exceptions I could live with),but this is not my business and nothing I should or will care about,all I can say is QUO VADIS JGHV
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Freeze » Thu May 28, 2015 5:40 pm

Wolfgang wrote:I'm always surprised to hear about the "changes" in VZPO which seem to be normal and the rule in NA compared to germany and accepted by JGHV :!: :oops: :shock:
Its clearly defined § 15 Verlorenbringen von federwild und Schleppenarbeit (2) Huhn (fasan)
§15 (4) Bringen auf der FEDER WILD Schleppe!!!!! For those who are not familiar with the exact translation Federwild means all kind of feathered game which is harvested as food (normally I know rednecks eat everything they kill or find even roadkill :lol: )
This means for us in germany Ente Fasan taube Huhn just to name the most common gamebirds! No crows ,buzzards or egg laying hens or anything like that.
Same rules for feathered game
§15 (5) a die haarwildschleppe ist mit hase oder kaninchen zu legen like already said before from another poster domestic animals aren't game and not acceptable according to HZP (at least in the country of origin)
But there are so many eceptions to the rule made for NA that it really doesn't surprise me to hear about using domestic animals for GAME drags!
Pointing on penraised planted birds,one bird used for all dogs in one testgroup vs a field stuffed with planted birds each handler knows were the planted bird is,whoa trained dogs for testing INHERITED pointing ability, spurarbeit with rabbitts or Running phez (Fasanengeläuf),Fuchs über Hinderniss with coon (that's one of the very few exceptions I could live with),but this is not my business and nothing I should or will care about,all I can say is QUO VADIS JGHV


Wolfgang,

I have never heard of a test where the handler knew the location of the bird ... Although if only one bird is used for all dogs handlers 2 through 5 would know!

I am not sure what you are trying to imply about whoa training and testing for pointing. I have been in 1 VJP and witnessed another (admittedly a very small sample size). During pointing the handlers were instructed to remain absolutely silent until the dog established point and the judges made their assessment. Once I was told to leash my dog I believe I would have been permitted to whoa my dog, although I my case that was unnecessary. I silently walked to my dog and clipped on the leash.

As far as the HZP I cannot imagine not having a dog whoa broke by the time they ran the test. One of the things that drew me to the DD was the fact that they generally mature quickly and can take the pressure of training at an early age.

Also it seems far more common in Germany that a pup be tested in VGP the same year they run the HZP. If that is the case I find it unlikely that whoa training is not in place for those dogs during the VJP. It is hard for me to imagine that a pup has no formal whoa training at all when tested in VJP and then is fully broke and reliably steady to wing, shot and fall 4 months later in the VGP.

My intent of the question was not to start a Germany vs. NA debate, I was only seeking guidance as I prepare for the HZP.


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Re: HZP Question

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:11 pm

I have attended a test where 4 of 5 handlers tested on the same bird, and handlers were instructed to direct their dogs to the planted bird. there were plenty of birds and plenty of space, so I don't know the reasoning.

Two birds were planted for each pup at my dogs VJP. I much preferred this method of testing my dogs abilities.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Wolfgang » Fri May 29, 2015 2:49 am

Its not my intention either to start a NA vs FRG debate not even a debate at all.
My intention is to answer your question about drag GAME!!!! which is clearly defined in VZPO and my other intention is directed toward every adult hunter/doghandler to use his common sense ,not to provide unnecessarily food for anti's animal lovers or those who have only one goal TO STOP HUNTING AT ALL!!!!!
I'm an old man and such things will not affect me as hard as they will you younger folks!
About your question about whao training,you stated already that you are pretty new to the subject of testing ,so you don't necessarily need to know it .
VJP and HZP are natural instinct tests were ONLY INHERITED TRAITS should be tested (except the retrieving parts in HZP) to evaluate future broodstock and proof the quality as broodstock from sire and dam and the knowledge and experience (sometimes only a bunch of good luck) of the breeder to select the perfect match of sire and dam to develop the best possible traits in the offspring.
Now even a newbee knows (should know) that trained issues cannot be passed on in genetics so if you train a pup on the whoa table already continue on dozens of penraised birds and test on penraised birds were you already know were the bird is and can walk towards it with perfect wind and say a silent whoa 10,20 ,30 yards in front of the judge group what do you think is getting judged a trained issue or a natural inherited trait to search find and point including style ,perfect use of nose,turning always intelligent into the wind to get the very best chance to find!!!????
So this is my PERSONAL point of view as handler,trainer,judge and hunter.
So now let me play devils advocate and ask as bunny hugger who wants to stop hunting: Why do you need to harm tame penraised cute birdies who can't really fly only hopp and fly 10 or 20 yards and than get caught by your bearded monster which is chewing and chaking but not instantly killing itin a most possible humane way if there is a need at all for that poor animal to die?
Answer of the handler...we don't have enough wild gamebirds to hunt and test our dogs :shock: Bingo!!!! Thank you Mr .handler /hunter for providing the fact to nail your balls to the barn door!
If there isn't enough wild birds to hunt why do you need a bird dog to find the very few birds left and kill them????? wouldn't it be much better to stop hunting and develop a healthy population to grow and in addition to that start predator hunting :oops: :? :idea:
My personal idea turn the brain switch on before the mouth opens oponents are everywere and watch you 24/7 :wink:
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Re: HZP Question

Postby marjolein » Fri May 29, 2015 4:49 am

3drahthaars wrote:[The only strict requirement by PO for ANY drag is the weight and allowable modifications of the tail, viscera and head of a fox.

And even that's not as strict as you say ;-)
But there might be a difference between judging in Germany and judging over there.
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Re: HZP Question

Postby Freeze » Fri May 29, 2015 4:53 am

Wolfgang,

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond and provide a translation/interpretation of the VZPO for the German version.

I also agree that testing on pen raised birds is less than ideal, and does not fall directly in line with the intent of the VZPO.
I also agree that a handler directing his dog to a "point" on a planted bird in a known location is not going to identify dogs who naturally use the wind to their advantage and point birds on their own.

I pointed out that I am new to JGHV testing, I am not new to all testing.

As far as testing for inherited abilities, to play devils advocate, the only way to judge instinctive pointing would be to judge that dogs reaction to a bird on his first find. Every bird encounter beyond the first is influenced by the dogs history and what it has learned with previous encounters.

It seems to me you are against any formal whoa training prior to the VJP ... I would like to see your response from your perspective in Germany of dogs taking the VGP (clearly a test requiring extensive formal training) in the same year they take their VJP.


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