No more dual registered DD's?

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Sun May 24, 2015 4:08 pm

But here's a question. Are we (VDD-GNA) more concerned with public exposure and broadening a market base for our pups? Or do we want to remain smaller with slow steady growth?


So this measure is to limit growth....if we remove ourselves from other venues we will limit growth? So our dogs in other venues are attracting people and we don't want that?
Personally, I don't understand why we wouldn't want folks from other venues (most with dog experience) coming to the breed. I'm certainly willing to hear the discussion.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby DDinTN » Sun May 24, 2015 4:16 pm

That was not my intention of that question - the purpose of the rule being to limit growth.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby leadeyedbugger » Sun May 24, 2015 4:34 pm

I guess that I just don't connect the two. I don't see how letting me run a dd in a navdha test or a akc test or a trial or some other venue has anything to do with protecting the genetics. I don't go to a event to breed or have a dog bred. I go to have fun, meet other similiar people, see other dogs, prep for hunting etc etc.....
I just think that testing and breeding are, or should be exclusive to each other.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby leadeyedbugger » Sun May 24, 2015 4:39 pm

Don't think this will limit growth....I think if you want to throttle back growth a bit then make it to where you have to run a dog through vgp before you can be a kennel or something like that. That would probably slow down or pace out the A litter growth a bit.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby Deuce » Sun May 24, 2015 5:50 pm

DDinTN wrote:Nope didn't forget it and I supported it then and now. Most of the complaining that I've heard has been from GWP guys. Outside of this forum, every DD person that I've talked to are 100% behind this. Second, the proposal was originally submitted by the Wild West Chapter in the summer of 2013, was posted in the GNA newsletter and was subsequently voted on by the GNA general membership and GNA Board of directors. Plenty of time for a dissenting voice to be heard. If you didn't know about it, either you are not a VDD-GNA member or if you are, you chose not to be involved.


It was my understanding that the motion from the Wild West chapter and what was originally brought to Germany was modified, in Germany, into its current form. Lynn/Jon - care to explain?

If I missed it, then you're rights that's my fault. Although, from the uproar I've heard(I must have different DD circles than you) it seems most didn't know this was coming.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Sun May 24, 2015 6:26 pm

delete
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby Trailsend » Mon May 25, 2015 7:07 am

[quote="DrahtsundBraats"]I am concerned that the fear of the GWP "moniker" has led to a victory for the GWP...as we have now withdrawn and left the various test/competition venues. if you look at it pragmatically, the GWP is controlling us, our members and where our dogs may compete. I don't see how it can be seen in any other way.


I don't get this one. How is the GWP controlling the VDD? It's the VDD that set the rules for the DD. I have no problems with the VDD and what they are trying to do with maintaining the genetics of their dogs. But they set the rules that DD owners are to follow.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby JTracyII » Mon May 25, 2015 9:10 am

DDinTN wrote: Stopping outside groups from utilizing the DD to bolster their genetics only serves to protect our dogs and our Club's interests. Now if someone wants a DD, they have to go buy a DD; not a GWP one generation out.


How will this rule stop a person who has no membership in the VDD from buying a DD, registering it with NAVHDA (or some other registry) and using the dog for breeding outside the VDD. Based on what I've read it does nothing to prevent this. It does prevent members from testing in other organizations and breeding outside the VDD, unless of course they decide they want to leave the VDD, then of course they are free to breed their dogs to GWP's once registered in another registry. It appears to me there will still be plenty of DD blood to go around, while the VDD limits it's members opportunities for testing. Am I wrong? Maybe I'm missing something...
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon May 25, 2015 10:00 am

DDinTN wrote:That was not my intention of that question - the purpose of the rule being to limit growth.


Interesting... See how many "A" litters on the website are out of non VGP'd dogs? With all of the tests now compared to 15 years ago, there's little excuse for a DD owner with aspirations to breed to not VGP. In fact, no novice should entertain breeding his dog without getting through VGP... you cannot know the complete dog unless you VGP to test what's between its ears.

Everyone's been jumping on the breeding bandwagon for the past 15 years, and anyone who spoke up about slowing down got their B@!!s kicked in and were exiled to the wings of the stage.

If limiting growth is the "root cause", then we're about 15 years behind and personally there's too much momentum to slow the locomotive down now.

And, for the life of me I cannot see how the "motion" will slow down growth.

I eagerly look forward to the EB's explanation at the AGM... and just as eagerly the response of the general membership... However, I'm not so positive it'll be the 100% support that has been purported in earlier posts.

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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon May 25, 2015 12:07 pm

I would happily support a motion that a kennel owner must train their own dog through VGP prior to starting a kennel. This makes sense, even to a newbie like myself.

I have an A litter pup from non VGP parents and the breeder has been just as much help to me as the breeder of my first dog, who is well known for being a go-to guy for puppy buyers. When I have a question about either pup, I go to their respective breeders. Sending a dog through VGP does not make a supportive breeder, but it does add another level of expectation for new kennels.

Breeding restrictions are good, participation restrictions benefit nobody.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby Steven » Tue May 26, 2015 10:07 am

leadeyedbugger wrote:Don't think this will limit growth....I think if you want to throttle back growth a bit then make it to where you have to run a dog through vgp before you can be a kennel or something like that. That would probably slow down or pace out the A litter growth a bit.


It most certainly will temper growth because you've limited your market. A buddy of mine and I have discussed this very subject of late. What is GNA's vision for the DD breed with respect to numbers in the next 5 years, 10 years? Where are the serious hunters we want buying these dogs coming from and how do you get their attention? You have big named kennels producing 3-4 litters a year and then having to try to sell them on Facebook to people who dress their dogs up in cute costumes more often than they hunt them.

3drahthaars wrote:Interesting... See how many "A" litters on the website are out of non VGP'd dogs? With all of the tests now compared to 15 years ago, there's little excuse for a DD owner with aspirations to breed to not VGP. In fact, no novice should entertain breeding his dog without getting through VGP... you cannot know the complete dog unless you VGP to test what's between its ears.


Misskiwi67 wrote:I would happily support a motion that a kennel owner must train their own dog through VGP prior to starting a kennel. This makes sense, even to a newbie like myself.


I don't support it as a means to temper growth . . . I do so as a means to better prepare breeders to mentor their puppy owners. A motion to this effect was approved and forwarded from the Big Rivers Chapter this year to be considered by the Group membership.
"A bird dog already wants to find and point birds. It's my job to take nothing away from that and add those little things that WE want them to do. . ." - Maurice Lindley
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue May 26, 2015 11:56 am

Steven wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:Interesting... See how many "A" litters on the website are out of non VGP'd dogs? With all of the tests now compared to 15 years ago, there's little excuse for a DD owner with aspirations to breed to not VGP. In fact, no novice should entertain breeding his dog without getting through VGP... you cannot know the complete dog unless you VGP to test what's between its ears.


Misskiwi67 wrote:I would happily support a motion that a kennel owner must train their own dog through VGP prior to starting a kennel. This makes sense, even to a newbie like myself.


I don't support it as a means to temper growth . . . I do so as a means to better prepare breeders to mentor their puppy owners. A motion to this effect was approved and forwarded from the Big Rivers Chapter this year to be considered by the Group membership.


Yes and no.

What prepares breeders better to mentor is to HUNT their dogs, and learn what hunting a versatile dog is all about. A one-dog wonder with an HZP has at best a season of hunting. At that point pup and handler are about equal in experience... still novices for the most part.

Yes the VGP might prepare a breeder with some training/testing experience to pass on, but again it's more important to help him make a better decision on which stud to select or if his dog has the mental toughness that he should be breeding.

It is easy to use test scores as a marketing tool comparing raw scores.

However, it takes a little more knowlege and experience to use them in the manner in which they were intended...

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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Tue May 26, 2015 3:57 pm

I think a topic for discussion might also be breeding imported bitches before they can really be evaluated and hunted. I think most are probably very useable dogs but I think it takes a bit l and some research to understand what a good pairing might be. I know some folks out there do.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby Georgia Boy » Tue May 26, 2015 8:19 pm

I would be more concerned with the import studs that are imported and bred multiple times before they have ever been hunted at all.
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Re: No more dual registered DD's?

Postby CohanseyDD » Wed May 27, 2015 8:29 am

3d's
Your comment about "one dog HZP wonders" breeding and only having one year of hunting experience at best is painting with a pretty broad brush. I would be one of those your statement could be directed at. Yes...I bred my first DD after taking her through all tests with extremely good results. You could say that I "jumped on the bandwagon" by deciding to breed her, but the truth of it is that I've hunted bird dogs of many different breeds for my whole life and I'm 56. Did I ever hunt or train a DD before? No. Does that mean I don't have the experience to recognize what I was doing? I don't think so. Did I do every bit of research I could to find the right stud and drive half way across the country for the first four breedings I did just to breed? I didn't. I could have stopped there and been a "one dog wonder", but I took the next one through VGP too and will take the third one through VGP this Fall. My point is that you never know if someone is going to be a "one dog wonder" until they have a chance to show who they're going to be.
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