Bringsel Training

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Bringsel Training

Postby SMAbby » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:37 am

I have been looking into to doing this for our VGP next fall. I guess what I would like to know is how many have done this here as I am sure I will need a little help..............ok, maybe alot of help if I decided to go this route. I know that I should be using the K.I.S.S. method going into VGP training, but there is something about this that seems to intrege me.It seems that it would make or break you at the VGP.

SO, can I just make my own bringsel or it it better to buy one.
Is there any specific specs that you have to use to test with one. I.E weight, shape, length?
Am I biting off way more tehna rookie can chew?
hen by spring, I can have him doingit int he yard with a hide.
thanks
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:41 pm

I think the Bringsel is one of the most interesting pieces of dogwork. I have always been intrigued by it (have no real use for it in anything I do with dogs) and have inquired a number of times over the history of internet BB's and have not had a answer as to process. I am sure there are a few more than just you that will be "wondering".
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby DDGUY » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:20 pm

Training the Totverwieser is really pretty simple. Most that do it at VGP are looking for extra points on the score. I have qualified 2 VGP dogs as Totverwieser. I have found one occasion to use it in real hunting, and I know a few others that have also. I don't know what the KISS method is, but the dog needs to be FF. You can make your own bringsel. It could be a stick on. String, but most make one out of leather for durability.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby SMAbby » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:41 pm

DDGUY wrote: Most that do it at VGP are looking for extra points on the score. I have qualified 2 VGP dogs as Totverwieser. I have found one occasion to use it in real hunting, and I know a few others that have also. I don't know what the KISS method is, but the dog needs to be FF. You can make your own bringsel. It could be a stick on. String, but most make one out of leather for durability.


Not interested in the extra points........although I guess it would be a plus. I am interested in a challenge. It maybe pretty simple, but since I have never done it, it will be interesting to attempt. What occasions have you found it useful?
Sorry about the K.I.S.S method thing. :oops: That just stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. K.I. S.S. In other words, instead of adding something else to an already daunting task, I should just keep it simple. But sometimes I get a wild hair and want to go with it. :twisted: :wink:

I would appreciate any advise or ideas from anyone.

Thanks
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:11 am

DDGUY wrote:Training the Totverwieser is really pretty simple. Most that do it at VGP are looking for extra points on the score. I have qualified 2 VGP dogs as Totverwieser. I have found one occasion to use it in real hunting, and I know a few others that have also. I don't know what the KISS method is, but the dog needs to be FF. You can make your own bringsel. It could be a stick on. String, but most make one out of leather for durability.


I agree 100% with DD-guy it doesn't have much use in real hunting situations and during tests its just for some extra points while taking a higher risk to fail.
The problem in the test is not that the dog will not pick up his Bringsel and return once he found the dead animal,its much more the risk that the dog once turned loose and out of sight of his handler hits a fresh track and decides to start his own hunt.
I have trained a Deutsche jagdterrier 2 years ago for bringselverweiser and had planned to enter her in GP (similar to VGP for V-dogs) as Verweiser.
Now I had run her in the international test after the shot and competed against the best DJT's in europe,I finished every task with 4 except drawing a dead fox out of a pipe were she got a 3 with this score and a 3 or 4 in bloodtrailing I would have placed in the top 3 or 5!
But since this female had already 2 complete boarhuntingseasons under her belt she was more interested in fresh tracks than artificial and together with the tough conditions 2 weeks of pouring rain prior to the test i wasn#t able to manage the challenge and failed in bloodtracking and bumbed the whole test.
I had learned my leason from this and entered her the following oct.in GP without Verweiser (the int test in august was also WITHOUT Verweiser but showed me her weak points) and she made the GP with ALL 4 only the blind duck retrieve she scored 3.
So what I'm trying to say is don't hesitate to train your dog as Verweiser but for the test I would recomend to use what you call K:I:S:S: method!

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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:21 am

Had some problems to post the pics,
but here is 2 more to show you the Bringsel attached to her collar (a friend who is a shoemaker made it for me so it looks quite professional but a piece of rubber gardenhose will do the same job)
first pic shows the yard excercise when she found the hide,second she returned to me with the Bringsel.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby huntinmo » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:37 am

So we are reading that the mechanics of the training are not particularly difficult, but the handling and execution can have challenges. Of course, it is a test and should not be a giveme, but certainly is within the capabilities of most blood tracking teams with proper preparation. Due the training, gain some experience, be aware of the requirements and the possibilities of what can take place at the test, and when you are ready go for it. If it does not work out the way you expect, keep in mind that it is probably not the fault of the dog! :morning:
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Flyingm » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:05 pm

K.I.S.S. means keep it simple, stupid. Or keep it simple, $#!*head. K.I.S.S. are truly words to live by :lol: :lol: :lol:
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his foolishness" Proverbs 26:11 NLT.

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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby DDGUY » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:40 am

SMAbby wrote:
DDGUY wrote: Most that do it at VGP are looking for extra points on the score. I have qualified 2 VGP dogs as Totverwieser. I have found one occasion to use it in real hunting, and I know a few others that have also. I don't know what the KISS method is, but the dog needs to be FF. You can make your own bringsel. It could be a stick on. String, but most make one out of leather for durability.


Not interested in the extra points........although I guess it would be a plus. I am interested in a challenge. It maybe pretty simple, but since I have never done it, it will be interesting to attempt. What occasions have you found it useful?
Sorry about the K.I.S.S method thing. :oops: That just stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. K.I. S.S. In other words, instead of adding something else to an already daunting task, I should just keep it simple. But sometimes I get a wild hair and want to go with it. :twisted: :wink:

I would appreciate any advise or ideas from anyone.

Thanks


Like Wolfgang said, for the most part Totverweisen is a cute trick. Kind of like teaching your dog to shake hands. I have to confess that the one time I used it in hunting wasn't because I needed it. It was mostly for show. In theory the purpose of Totverweisen is to allow the dog to continue to follow the blood trail off lead, and still be able to indicate to the handler when he has found the game. It's a symbolic retrieve. This might be used when the trail leads you into some very thick underbrush, and following on lead becomes impossible. Even then the handler needs to assess the situation for the safety of the dog. The track may go on for miles, and turning a tracking dog loose may endanger the dog from things such as traffic on roads, other hunters, etc. Virtually all blood tracks should be followed from start to finish on lead.

There is a risk in testing for Totverweisen at the VGP. In the past there was no risk. Handlers, some of which were unprepared, would go for it just to get the extra points. If they failed there were no consequences. About 10 years ago JGHV recognized this and changed the rules a bit. If you fail the verweiser, you must then complete the verweiser track (200 m) on lead. This sounds simple enough. After all the verweiser track is fresh and stinky, but like Wolfgang pointed out, the main reason dogs fail the verweiser is because they go out and find a real game track. When this happens the dog isn't always able to put the game track out of his mind and come back and follow the artificial verweiser track. If he doesn't, you can't pass the VGP.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Georgia Boy » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:07 pm

:shock:
DDGUY wrote:
SMAbby wrote:
DDGUY wrote: Most that do it at VGP are looking for extra points on the score. I have qualified 2 VGP dogs as Totverwieser. I have found one occasion to use it in real hunting, and I know a few others that have also. I don't know what the KISS method is, but the dog needs to be FF. You can make your own bringsel. It could be a stick on. String, but most make one out of leather for durability.


Not interested in the extra points........although I guess it would be a plus. I am interested in a challenge. It maybe pretty simple, but since I have never done it, it will be interesting to attempt. What occasions have you found it useful?
Sorry about the K.I.S.S method thing. :oops: That just stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. K.I. S.S. In other words, instead of adding something else to an already daunting task, I should just keep it simple. But sometimes I get a wild hair and want to go with it. :twisted: :wink:

I would appreciate any advise or ideas from anyone.

Thanks


Like Wolfgang said, for the most part Totverweisen is a cute trick. Kind of like teaching your dog to shake hands. I have to confess that the one time I used it in hunting wasn't because I needed it. It was mostly for show. In theory the purpose of Totverweisen is to allow the dog to continue to follow the blood trail off lead, and still be able to indicate to the handler when he has found the game. It's a symbolic retrieve. This might be used when the trail leads you into some very thick underbrush, and following on lead becomes impossible. Even then the handler needs to assess the situation for the safety of the dog. The track may go on for miles, and turning a tracking dog loose may endanger the dog from things such as traffic on roads, other hunters, etc. Virtually all blood tracks should be followed from start to finish on lead.

.


All this is aside from the fact that blood tracking done off lead is illegal in most states. :shock: Even blood tracking on lead is illegal in a lot of states :?:
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby huntinmo » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:36 pm

[quote="DDGUY" There is a risk in testing for Totverweisen at the VGP. In the past there was no risk. Handlers, some of which were unprepared, would go for it just to get the extra points. If they failed there were no consequences. About 10 years ago JGHV recognized this and changed the rules a bit. If you fail the verweiser, you must then complete the verweiser track (200 m) on lead. This sounds simple enough. After all the verweiser track is fresh and stinky, but like Wolfgang pointed out, the main reason dogs fail the verweiser is because they go out and find a real game track. When this happens the dog isn't always able to put the game track out of his mind and come back and follow the artificial verweiser track. If he doesn't, you can't pass the VGP.[/quote]

…And while you are pondering this, keep in mind that the dog (tracking team) must first successfully complete the 400 meter on lead track. So, no problem since your dog always finds the game at the end of the track? Well, for the track for the dead game guide there is NO game at the end of the 400 meters, only a wound bed. Is your dog trained to identify the wound beds and indicate them to you? Per the regulation, during the test signs or markers MUST NOT be detectable by the handler. So, if your dog happens to miss the 400 meter wound bed and proceeds on 60 meters you will get a call back, and the call back will be to the last location that you indicated blood where you get to try again to find the wound bed on lead assuming that you have not used up your tries.
On the other hand, it is very impressive when the well trained dog upon approaching the wound bed at the start of the track goes to it and assumes the down position on his own without command and waits there for the handler to attach the collar and lead, and then indicates each successive wound bed in a similar manner. You can probably do OK without that much training, but how much are you willing to leave to chance?
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby SMAbby » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:59 pm

Bummer. I wasnt interested in teaching it as a parlor trick or as something cute. I guess I was looking at it as something challenging to try. But it seems a lot look at it as nothing more then a trick?
I can see it isnt practical really. But I would think it had to be at some point for some method of hunting or why was it developed.

Anyway, I asked for it! :D

Thanks :D
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Ritter » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:20 am

Mary,
by no means am I an authority on how to handle a dog in the VGP. Josh and I have only done a couple, and helped a couple other dogs/handlers train for the VGP as well. All of the tasks that you and the dog must do are HUGE, especially for your first VGP. When Josh was in Germany last year training, He was training for his first VGP. He was told " You WILL NOT be doing the 24 hour blood track" this is your first test, do NOT fail the dog or lessen the dogs score because of your handling!!! Get through your first VGP and then if you want you can do the other extra VGP tasks next time.
Now this being said, you will recall that Josh did do the Bringsel with Ike. Josh really enjoyed training for it and enjoyed having his dog complete this task. Fast forward to this past HZP/VGP testing with Jax, whom you saw this year in Hugo. This dog wasn't 2 yet, and did HZP on one weekend, and the following weekend did the vgp. Josh of course was training Jax for the Bringsel, I pulled the plug on that two days before the VGP test. I didn't want the dog to fail the VGP for an "extra". And here is how the dog almost failed the VGP because of this, and I never saw this coming, and this is NOT why I pulled the plug.....dog came happily back to show Josh where the fox was laying out in the woods, tried to get Josh to follow him back, man was this dog ever happy, because he knew where the fox was and he was going to "guide" Josh back to the fox.
Do you want to fail your first required VGP tasks because you are going for extra credit? All the previous posts have tried to give you friendly advice, I am offering the same friendly advice. There are so many dogs that fail the VGP on the minimum tasks, But the short time I met you and how well you did training Max for his tests last year, I know why you would want to "push" the envelope a little further. You will do whatever you choose to do, just know some of the pros and cons of running your first VGP.
Now to the question of how practical is the Bringsel, it's great! would love to be able to let THE BITCH off the leash, we would have most of our tracks done in 38 seconds flat! but up here in the North, a dog in the woods that is interpreted as chasing deer, does not come out of the woods!
Another question can be asked as to how practical is it to have a versatile dog retrieve a dead, sinky fox through the woods, you would think NEVER, until as what happened last summer when Josh shot a coyote out in the back bean field, sent Chisle out for the search, he found it, he delivered it to hand. That scene alone was a couple different tasks of the VGP test.
Long story short Mary, have a great time training you and your dog for the VGP test. Sounds like we are going to have two DD's, one DL and one handsome Munstalander in Hugo VGP this fall.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby CalB » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:35 pm

Four of us ran littermates thru the VGP this fall and all trained for the bringsel. Being the only one who had done it before, I was the 'teacher' and all the dogs picked it up really well. Come test day, the 'teacher' was the only one of the four to not be successful on the bringsel. My dog was in raging heat and she just came back without the bringsel in her mouth. Putting her back on lead and completing another 200 meters of blood was not very fun but we still managed to get er done.

I would disagree that it is simpy a cute trick because I have had the chance to use it in more than one big game (deer and elk) recovery. Mind you this is on a private ranch where there is ZERO chance of getting the dog shot. Twice now after losing blood trials after very very long tracking work , one was over 7 hrs and miles on a still very alive elk, the dog was turned loose with a bringsel and found the game. Although the elk was still alive I feel like putting the bringsel on the dog when free searching is an advantage simply because once on, it becomes clear in the dogs mind what the excercise is. To find game even tho there is not a track to follow.

Like Ritter I have seen the bringsel cause dogs confusion on the fox at VGP and hurt the dogs score more than help it. So you are taking a big chance in the test and not just completing the bringsel. It could bite you somewhere you don't expect it along the way.

I have heard that the concept was used by the Germans in the war for finding wounded soldiers. Because of the danger of walking around trying to find wounded men dogs where trained to find wounded men, put the bringsel in their mouth and then take help back to them. I would be interested to find out if this is indeed a fact. Sounds very reasonable in the situation.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby DK dreams » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:32 pm

I taught tis to my first DK,it was easy enough to teach and learn. I would not bet a test score on it tho.
I do feel it is more of a neat trick than a useful hunting/recovery technique.
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