Force Fetch

[gwp4me2]

Only if there young dog has the mental maturity to advance. GOOD TRAINER also knows when to back off and push not a young dogs in training that's not ready.

Yep, that's why I said they won't create the problems. How many inexperienced trainers recognize a problem in the making and back off for a month or 2?

I would not be interested in dogs that can't take appropriate training in force retrieve at 8-10 months of age. If they are so sensitive, lose drive, or are crushed by proper training, they should be returned to the breeder. Early maturing dogs are far more interesting and valuable...but I guess my perspective is as a breeder. The slower maturing, less confident, softer dog can certainly become a good hunting dog but it would not be the temperament that I am looking for.

I agree. If a pup hasn't shown me a lot by even 6 months I'll probably move on. Most people who just have a single hunting dog aren't willing to throw away the year they spent on the family pet though. That's why I suggest with FF it's better to be a little late than too early. Bad habits aren't formed with a couple experiences so I don't worry about their potential until I see evidence that it might become a problem. But I'm also very selective on where I hunt the pup the first season. For example the first duck hunts are in what is called 'the pasture'. Basically no water over your knees and almost no cover. The pup can see. Wounded birds won't get away allowing some drive-building chases, etc. Upland hunts are also carefully selected. Hunts for the dogs benefit and not the hunters.

[Penndraht]

Many of the pups I sell are in the hands of first time trainers. I never whelp a litter in the fall and winter before January. Thats hunting season and thats the reason I own them. So most of my pups have been between 9 to 13 months old at the VJP. I DON'T recommend my puppy buyers to do the force fetch before the VJP. Theres plenty of other things to work on to keep them busy. Its not that the pups couldn't handle it. The problem is very few of the new owners can. Immediately after the VJP we start FF. They have already been instucted to purchase Evan Grahams Smart fetch
DVD. They are also instucted to follow it and don't deviate. Smart Fetch in my opinion is the best of the best out there. Follow it and be patient and you will have a happy energetic retreiver. I've seen plenty of young dogs over the years that retreive like a robot, tail tucked between their legs and obviously not having any fun. ALL FORCE NO FUN. If you want your dog to do his best at the HZP. He or she has to enjoy their work.

To sum this all up: I would not reccommend an inexpieranced handler to attempt force fetch before the VJP age level.

[3drahthaars]

I would not be interested in dogs that can't take appropriate training in force retrieve at 8-10 months of age. If they are so sensitive, lose drive, or are crushed by proper training, they should be returned to the breeder. Early maturing dogs are far more interesting and valuable...but I guess my perspective is as a breeder. The slower maturing, less confident, softer dog can certainly become a good hunting dog but it would not be the temperament that I am looking for.

Jon,

I tried to stay out of this urinating contest thread, but after the above comment, I plead guilty for taking the bait.

How many dogs have you personally trained and/or FF?

How many DDs did you go through before you finally had confidence to enter and go through the system?

They are important questions, considering your value on "... early maturing dogs ..." "because they are far more interesting and valueable...".

Wouldn't we all just LOVE to get perfect dogs every time. But, fortunately, probably the majority of versatile dog owners don't so easily lose interest in their pups. Instead, they pursue on, train and develop their dogs into hunters. And, I'd submit that they have more to offer for experience and training tips than the guy who only sticks with the "perfect" specimens.

I think that if you've had a pup for 10-mo, poured your heart, soul, and blood into it, you don't so easily just lose interest. I don't.

There was an excellent post that the pups might be ready, but the owners not. That speaks volumes.

My first DD wasn't perfect, moreso I wasn't either, but I stumble-bummed through training her, and we got through the system first time and were together for 14-yrs. Same with the next two, and also for 14-years each. And, I'm in it for the duration with my new pup.

You don't learn much about training from working with the dogs in the 99-percentile, and I think your comments reflect that.

I think that some of the other guys that "phooied" your first comments know that too, because they've rolled their sleeves up, gotten their hands dirty, and probably developed nice dogs out of what you would have culled. And, as a judge but moreso as a trainer/handler I have the greatest respect for the guys who test and hunt every year with dogs that to paraphrase you are "far less interesting and valueable". My God, just reading that again sounds so snobbish...

But, I guess that your "perspective as a breeder" means that you don't just get a hunting dog... you're buying breeding stock. And, I thought we were a club of hunters breeding dogs for hunters.

Theoretically, only a small percentage our our pups would be worthy to be your "breeding stock", and with that the "poor" guys that get stuck with dogs that you would wash out have to make do.

It's interesting with your comments on another thread about why get an import with the dogs available over here... when the last I remember all of your dogs were imports! And, for sure the first two that I remember going to VGP. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Maybe you should be more honest about that, too.

Personally, I'll FF my pup WHEN SHE IS READY, not when her dentition is complete, with regard to hunting season, or to any other arbitrary schedule!


Regards,


3drahthaars

[DrahtsundBraats]

I tried to stay out of this urinating contest thread, but after the above comment, I plead guilty for taking the bait.

There is no contest and any bait has been purely fantasized by you.

How many dogs have you personally trained and/or FF?

Trained...20+ FF...16 First one that did both was a DD in 1972.

How many DDs did you go through before you finally had confidence to enter and go through the system?

Had nothing to do with confidence...if you mean the first dog that I felt was good enough....10 years ago.

They are important questions, considering your value on "... early maturing dogs ..." "because they are far more interesting and valueable...".

My opinion..or has that been outlawed while I wasn't looking. Its also an important aspect of JGHV testing....18 months (on average) and there are 5 retrieves at the HZP...would seem the Germans expect a lot...not just me.

Wouldn't we all just LOVE to get perfect dogs every time. But, fortunately, probably the majority of versatile dog owners don't so easily lose interest in their pups. Instead, they pursue on, train and develop their dogs into hunters. And, I'd submit that they have more to offer for experience and training tips than the guy who only sticks with the "perfect" specimens.

You lost me...what has this to do with FF?? Where are the perfect dogs??
I am very interested in seeing them.

I think that if you've had a pup for 10-mo, poured your heart, soul, and blood into it, you don't so easily just lose interest. I don't.

Who is giving up on any 10 month old pup. I sold one with a bad bite once. Otherwise, every dog I have sold was with me longer than that.

There was an excellent post that the pups might be ready, but the owners not. That speaks volumes.

No problem....most pups will just become hunting dogs and vanish...that's fine. But for those owners that take on the challenge of testing, waiting until May to start FF will usually not turn out well in September. Sounds like maybe like owners are more uncomfortable with FF than the dogs probably are.

My first DD wasn't perfect, moreso I wasn't either, but I stumble-bummed through training her, and we got through the system first time and were together for 14-yrs. Same with the next two, and also for 14-years each. And, I'm in it for the duration with my new pup.

Ditto...mine died in my arms.

You don't learn much about training from working with the dogs in the 99-percentile, and I think your comments reflect that.

Don't have any in the 99th percentile...but I do know that giving up 10-20 points at the HZP can often be avoided....and that mouthing, playing with, etc game the first season can be avoided. I can kill birds and rabbits and be WAY ahead for the spring test too.

I think that some of the other guys that "phooied" your first comments know that too, because they've rolled their sleeves up, gotten their hands dirty, and probably developed nice dogs out of what you would have culled. And, as a judge but moreso as a trainer/handler I have the greatest respect for the guys who test and hunt every year with dogs that to paraphrase you are "far less interesting and valueable". My God, just reading that again sounds so snobbish...

I'm glad that the breeders in Germany are not of the same opinion. There are hunting dogs and breeding dogs and not all are both. I was under the impression that was a fundamental principle in the Euro clubs.

But, I guess that your "perspective as a breeder" means that you don't just get a hunting dog... you're buying breeding stock. And, I thought we were a club of hunters breeding dogs for hunters.

Since when are breeding dogs NOT hunting dogs? You don't BUY breeding stock...you get a puppy and it proves to you its breeding stock. Each of us is entitled to our definition of what that means.

Theoretically, only a small percentage our our pups would be worthy to be your "breeding stock", and with that the "poor" guys that get stuck with dogs that you would wash out have to make do.

Well since only about 20% of each years production get a ZR number, it would seem a lot of folks agree with me.

It's interesting with your comments on another thread about why get an import with the dogs available over here... when the last I remember all of your dogs were imports! And, for sure the first two that I remember going to VGP. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Maybe you should be more honest about that, too.

I've had several US bred dogs....my latest pup is out of my own bitch.

Personally, I'll FF my pup WHEN SHE IS READY, not when her dentition is complete, with regard to hunting season, or to any other arbitrary schedule!

And you should....I'll be looking to see how that turns out for you.

[Penndraht]

quote from DB- No problem....most pups will just become hunting dogs and vanish...that's fine. But for those owners that take on the challenge of testing, waiting until May to start FF will usually not turn out well in September. Sounds like maybe like owners are more uncomfortable with FF than the dogs probably are.


Jon

Calling you out- Post all the DD's you have tested and all there scores in HZP and VGP. No more BS post-em. Then if you wish I will post all mine that I have force broken in April, May and June that according to you usually will not turn out well in September. Proving your all wet on this one will be easy.

Force fetch is not hard, BUT try to tell that to a inexpieranced handler doing it for their first time. I know I was one of em a long time ago and I have worked with a pile of em since. Let you in on a secret Jon that owner that you said is uncomfortable with FF is the one that is in charge of getting it done. I'm working with a young dog now and helping two others. Started FF at about 13 months old. They are now 15 months old. These handlers have come a long way since last fall and have the confidence now to do a proper FF. All three dogs are retrieving from land and water directly to the handler and sitting. And the key word is that they are HAPPY. All display proper holds, a soft mouth and if a duck is caught they come back alive. Thats all part of a proper FF.

Jon in closing don't respond with a bunch of Jibberish.

Gary Stephens
vom Herbstwind

[Cora's Shadow]

Wow, I am really surprised at the direction this thread has taken. I don't think that D&B was saying that you absolutely have to force-fetch a dog before the VJP in order to pass an HZP. I think he was just trying to offer some friendly advice.

I do agree with him in that as a breeder, I only want to breed dogs with the temperaments necessary to take the pressure of advanced training at a young age (along with a hundred other traits). I'm not saying that I will sell a dog if I can't force-break it at 6 months, but I will sell a dog if I can't get it through a HZP and NAVHDA Utility by the time it is two years of age.

[DK dreams]

First off,

we do not force fetch at 6 months old.
We begin the process, the ear pinch may not be introduced for months.

Any 5-7 month old who can not take the pressure involved in hold training may have a weaker nerve and more of an imbalance that I would be willing to breed.

Having a dog with a reliable retreive is essential for begining early drags and duck searches.

(not coming to the defense of d&B(I would never do that) only explaining the rational behind an early ff)

And the key word is that they are HAPPY

And dogs that are ff'd earlier are not?

What pup can not handle hold training at 5-7months old?

[DrahtsundBraats]

I am really surprised at the violent reaction to this whole subject. We go to training sessions all summer long and watch handlers and their dogs have difficulty with obedience and retrieving.....we watch wonderful young dogs at the HZP fall short of their potential....and in almost all cases it is because of obedience and retrieving, both of which are directly influenced by FF. The resources through clubs, the internet, CDs, etc are too many to count. You seem to be saying that all the handlers are so ham fisted it is best to wait until the dog is old enough to take the abuse. I watch owners in Germany with 14 week old puppies sitting with the dowel in their mouths. Many are done before we even start...hunting their young dogs with a lot less worry that they will mistreat game or run off with it. Year old dogs are halt trained as well. There is no iron clad time table and I didn't state that. I also wrote this...

For younger dogs, think about getting FF done in the late winter BUT make sure you are not reinforcing poor behavior during the hunting season. The first hunting season isn't really about shooting birds, its about practicing the behaviors you want, building the desire, and educating the dog on wild game.

VJP 62, 69, 73, 73, 71, 76
HZP 178, 183, 178, 186
VGP o, 304P Pr1, 0 (failed only 1 retrieve in these tests)

NA 106, 108, 112, 112, 112, 112, 112, 112
UT 174, 197, 194, 186, 204, 198, 196, 204, 183, 204

Gary,
Dogs that are born from April on are FF the next spring at anywhere from 8-12 months of age. What is the difference?? Hundreds of German/Austrian/Danish/Swiss trainers are getting FF done with dogs 8-10 months of age.

You are a pro quality trainer. Of course you can start in April/May and be done in plenty of time.

This has gotten way out of hand. NO ONE is saying that all pups should be bent to someone's will in September. On the other hand, a confident pup at 7-10 months of age can be FF'ed and 500-1000 European trainers prove it every year.

1000's of puppy owners of many breeds will take their young dogs out this fall, kill birds and many will watch their dogs behave badly. Behaviors will start that will make it more difficult in the future. IMO...one of the most important aspects of successful dog training is not creating problems that you have to deal with later.

So go ahead and one up me with your scores. I guarantee you there are hundreds of trainers in Germany that are training FF early that will put us both in the shade.

My last on this subject...sorry I bothered.

[Penndraht]

Jon, DK and Cora

My original post stated that I don't recommend my inexpieranced puppy buyers start the FF until after the VJP. Jan Feb and march is time for birdwork and rabbit tracking along with some obedience. I mentioned the time of whelping so all understood their age group. I never said I did not approve of FF earlier than that. If you have the expierance and can read your dog by all means go ahead. I am speaking from the expierance of working with many of my puppy buyers over the past 12 years and many others. The most important thing to me after the sell is the same as before the sell " the PUP " As I tried to make clear earlier I feel based on my expierance that a first time handler is better prepaired for a proper FF after working and bonding with the pup up to the VJP. You mention that in Europe 500 to a 1000 trainers do it every year. Germany whelps what 3000 to 4000 pups a year? Thats just DD's Not counting DK's PP's ect. All that in what I have heard compared to the size of New England. How nice would that be to the inexpieranced to have several pro quality trainers in your backyard. Would definately make a differance. We simply don't have that luxury here in the US.

Jon I called you out when you made the statement that if you waited till May usually the dog would not do well in September.That statement is simply not true. Most everyone I know including myself doesn't force break till spring. We have been freinds for some time now. I knew you hadn't tested many dogs in our system and neither have I compared to others.

DK- Sure a younger pup can be happy if done properly.

[GPBLITZ]

I do my FF over the winter for the most part. time it so when the ice goes off the ponds so I can finnish up with drive to the water. That's about May first . There have been a couple if finnished up end of july 3 wks before there UT test Most recently . Over the years i find it doesn't matter when I FF as long as it is done properly.. we've started on some pups 8, 10 wks old . keep it very short and fun is the key IMO.

[gwp4me2]

Jan Feb and march is time for birdwork and rabbit tracking along with some obedience.

This statement made me think more about the whole premiss of this debate on timing. In the U.S. we can't even agree on when 'Spring' or 'hunting season' is. If you live in the south you never really have winter where the lakes freeze over and all the cover is under snow. Your hunting seasons might be Jan-Feb. In the North at altitude season might start Sept. 1 and by the end of Dec. snow and ice have everything pretty much shut down. Even saying a 'winter born' pup can be 2 months different in age so a tough pup born 1/1 can be WAY ahead of a more average pup born 3/1. I just don't think you can make general statements about the best time other than when a particular pup is ready. One thing I will say is that for me there is nothing that can be more beneficial for a pup than getting out hunting as much as possible their first season. That's why we have them. If it costs me a good test score so be it but in my experience it is the pups who don't get out that don't do as well along with those who've been overworked on obedience from a very young age.

[Kyle]

I agree with almost everyone. This is a good time to FF your older pup so you are ready to start training as soon as VJP is over. Also if you are not good at FF it could be a disaster. However blaming chewing, burrying or otherwise mishandling game on Force Training to early is just making excuses for the dog.
Kyle