Is the VHDF relevant?

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Fri May 25, 2018 6:57 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
a single NAVHDA test

and those results are recorded on the NAVHDA pedigree database. That seems to be the rub with some folk 8)


Yes that’s one of the early criticisms I’ve read. People didn’t want it to be a breed registry and some of the original members left.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Urban_Redneck » Fri May 25, 2018 8:17 pm

Certainly as a breed registry, it falls way short on confirmation- the judge at my NA test couldn't/wouldn't even pronounce my pup's breed :oops:

My opinion is the registry exists so that buyers are able review results on all dogs that were put forth for testing. Certainly breeders aren't shy about talking up their prize 1 dogs. Let's say you're looking at a litter of $1000 pups 700 miles from your home, Sire is listed as Pz1 NA Pz1 UT AKC SR Hunter and the Dam is listed as Pz1 NA AKC SR Hunter, looks great. If the registry shows 2 undisclosed, poor UT scores for the Dam, do you plunk your money down? In my opinion, that's the value of the registry and database.

It cuts both ways, breeders use test scores to sell pups, but, they can't hide poor results either.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby JONOV » Sun May 27, 2018 10:28 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:Certainly as a breed registry, it falls way short on confirmation- the judge at my NA test couldn't/wouldn't even pronounce my pup's breed :oops:

My opinion is the registry exists so that buyers are able review results on all dogs that were put forth for testing. Certainly breeders aren't shy about talking up their prize 1 dogs. Let's say you're looking at a litter of $1000 pups 700 miles from your home, Sire is listed as Pz1 NA Pz1 UT AKC SR Hunter and the Dam is listed as Pz1 NA AKC SR Hunter, looks great. If the registry shows 2 undisclosed, poor UT scores for the Dam, do you plunk your money down? In my opinion, that's the value of the registry and database.

It cuts both ways, breeders use test scores to sell pups, but, they can't hide poor results either.

Just as important, it can show trends in a sire or dam...like a rash of bad bites or sensitive dogs.

RE UT dogs that have ran multiple times, not as concerning as a dog that’s been campaigned for NA many times.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun May 27, 2018 1:08 pm

JONOV wrote:RE UT dogs that have ran multiple times, not as concerning as a dog that’s been campaigned for NA many times.


Running a young dog 4 times at the UT level in a matter of weeks raises concerns in my eyes about the person doing it far more than the dog involved. Chasing a Marketing tool badge vs Breeding program feedback ...
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Tue May 29, 2018 3:07 am

A utility test is all training right? I don't see a problem with a dog being run once or ten times. Has more todo with the trainer, its not like a litter of pups comes out with the training.

I agree about multiple running of a NA test though. Or running a dog in NA with training on it for a better score. Defeats the whole purpose of the test being "natural ability".
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue May 29, 2018 6:07 am

ForestDump wrote:A utility test is all training right? I don't see a problem with a dog being run once or ten times. Has more todo with the trainer,


And that was my point. In my eyes it reveals things about the Breeder (who was handling the dog), that I steer clear of. All it reveals about the dog involved is it is not ready to run the test at a Prize 1 level.

Observing a dog running a UT reveals a lot about genetics that is not possible to discern through reading the test score.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Don » Tue May 29, 2018 11:12 am

It may also reveal the handler has recognized his shortcomings in training and knows the dog is capable of more. People tend to try to over read test scores. Many factors have an affect on the final score, luck being one of them.
In John Kegel's words. " If you have a Pr3 UT dog you have a good hunting dog. If you have a Pr 2UT dog you have an excellent hunting dog. If you have a Pr 1 UT dog you got lucky."
Put them on wild birds if you really want to know what you have.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue May 29, 2018 11:42 am

Don that is part of the back story I did not share. A hunter would take the young dog hunting and continue to train. Someone wrapped around the axle for a Prize 1 at a certain young age for marketing pups at a very high price runs 3 more tests in 3 weeks... originally meant as an example of the insights n value of the NAVHDA database that won’t appear on the breeders web page.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby orhunter » Tue May 29, 2018 5:32 pm

Forest:

I ran my last dog through NA three times. I wanted her to get the score that was a true reflection of her. She ended up with a 105 prize I. She was not a 112 dog which was my fault but the 105 was accurate. She was dinged in cooperation and water. The water part was my fault but it had nothing to do with water, it was all about retrieving. She loved the water. You don't shoot 250 birds over a pup that can't get a prize I. Getting dinged in cooperation is a good thing, shows the dog has drive. She was as cooperative as she needed to be.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Don » Wed May 30, 2018 12:40 pm

Also if you are doing your research it is a much wiser choice to breed to a strong "family line" rather than one "hot shot " individual.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ryanr » Wed May 30, 2018 1:12 pm

orhunter wrote:Forest:

I ran my last dog through NA three times. I wanted her to get the score that was a true reflection of her. She ended up with a 105 prize I. She was not a 112 dog which was my fault but the 105 was accurate. She was dinged in cooperation and water. The water part was my fault but it had nothing to do with water, it was all about retrieving. She loved the water. You don't shoot 250 birds over a pup that can't get a prize I. Getting dinged in cooperation is a good thing, shows the dog has drive. She was as cooperative as she needed to be.


I'm very curious, how was her NA water score nothing to do with water but all about retrieving considering NA has ZERO to do with retrieving? :popcorn:
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby orhunter » Wed May 30, 2018 1:33 pm

Ryanr: It most certainly does if the dog doesn't go in the water for the retrieve of thrown object. Like I said, dog loved water but retrieving wasn't a good reason to dive in. If the water part of the test wasn't about retrieving, we wouldn't have to throw anything as the dog would go in all on its own.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ryanr » Wed May 30, 2018 2:16 pm

orhunter wrote:Ryanr: It most certainly does if the dog doesn't go in the water for the retrieve of thrown object. Like I said, dog loved water but retrieving wasn't a good reason to dive in. If the water part of the test wasn't about retrieving, we wouldn't have to throw anything as the dog would go in all on its own.


It isn't about retrieving one bit. The dummy doesn't have to be retrieved, picked up, nothing. It is merely there as an incentive or objective for the dog to enter and swim. If a dog will already go on its own without reluctance or hesitation, the dummy sure isn't going to deter it.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby orhunter » Wed May 30, 2018 3:23 pm

The thing is, the dog isn't given a chance to just go for a swim. The pup is being restrained till the retrieve object is thrown. Yes, the dog isn't expected to retrieve but it is expected to respond to an object that can be retrieved. Without that object, we have no water test.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Urban_Redneck » Wed May 30, 2018 6:01 pm

orhunter wrote:The thing is, the dog isn't given a chance to just go for a swim. The pup is being restrained till the retrieve object is thrown. Yes, the dog isn't expected to retrieve but it is expected to respond to an object that can be retrieved. Without that object, we have no water test.


I don't believe you need to throw anything, if you told the judge "I'd like send pup on voice alone", he/she would oblige.
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