Is the VHDF relevant?

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby KJ » Mon May 21, 2018 1:18 pm

Forest,
If your primary goal in completing the test is marketability to the general public, NAVHDA wins, hands-down. However, if you are trying to appeal to the GWP breeders in the the northwest that are more heavily focused on breeding VERSATILE HUNTING DOGS, then most of us are certainly familiar with the VHDF, and if fact prefer it when evaluating the dog for its breeding value. If I can't watch the performance with my own eyes, I really can't trust what a '4' search, duck search, etc. looks like. But if a dog gets an '11' in a VHDF test, I know it took something special to convince the judges that the dog deserved a score above a 10.

The VHDF test does tell you more about the dog than a NAVHDA test, but NAVHDA is more widely accepted and known. I test in both for exactly those reasons.

Where did you get your GWP and what have you done with him so far?
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Mon May 21, 2018 1:42 pm

KJ wrote:Forest,
If your primary goal in completing the test is marketability to the general public, NAVHDA wins, hands-down. However, if you are trying to appeal to the GWP breeders in the the northwest that are more heavily focused on breeding VERSATILE HUNTING DOGS, then most of us are certainly familiar with the VHDF, and if fact prefer it when evaluating the dog for its breeding value. If I can't watch the performance with my own eyes, I really can't trust what a '4' search, duck search, etc. looks like. But if a dog gets an '11' in a VHDF test, I know it took something special to convince the judges that the dog deserved a score above a 10.

The VHDF test does tell you more about the dog than a NAVHDA test, but NAVHDA is more widely accepted and known. I test in both for exactly those reasons.

Where did you get your GWP and what have you done with him so far?



I got the dog from Washington shortly after I move out west. I came out with a little setter shooting dog but the eastern Oregon grounds were eating her paws up so I started looking for a second dog and hooked up with this Elk Hunter in ellensburg who had a gwp close to two years old he didn’t have the time for.

this is the pedigree here | https://dogs.pedigreeonline.com/thunder ... N/pedigree

First 6 months I just hunted him, he was a mess. Ran big, took out birds, ate birds in the middle of retrieves. Shut it down and spent all spring/summer fixing crap and breaking him. Had him broke by end of the summer and hunted him again 84 days this past year turned out to be a good dog. Put a SH title on him this Spring, running him in some broke dog stakes. I’ve never really been a hunt test guy but want to keep this dog busy. The NAVHDA/VHDF thing was basically a whim to see how he’d do because he’s the first “versatile” dog I’ve ever had. All my dogs before had long tails. I don’t really care about treeing coons, killing and bringing back nutria, or jumping coyotes (all stuff he does) and I only jump shoot ducks if I ever shoot at them at all. But these wires are cool dogs seems like a disservice to not run him in this field at least once.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ryanr » Mon May 21, 2018 1:43 pm

If someone's only interested in trying to slap on a title for breeding advertising purposes and then offering nothing else to the organization I actually don't think it's that steep at all. For those invested in NAVHDA as an organization, from international to the grassroots chapter level, I actually think it's steeper since many of us are the ones that are doing all the leg work involved in planning and hosting tests. From the phone calls and emails to get judges lined up, accommodations for judges, meals. Securing adequate testing grounds, and permits from state agencies. Coordinating with International, advertising for the tests, processing test entries, developing the wait list, etc. Procuring enough birds from chukars or quail and pheasants and ducks. Picking up the birds before the test. Setting up the testing grounds prior to the test (many may burn a vacation day for this- I know I do.) Tending the birds during the test. Securing all the necessary volunteers to pull a successful test off. On top of all that, the folks doing all this work are paying the same price to test as everyone else is.

I can remember my very first test as a NAVHDA member. My former chapter hosted it. It was 3.5 hours away from me and was a 3 day test. I drove up on Thursday to help set up, then got my tent set up to sleep in for the weekend. Up at 5AM on Friday, took care of my dog then immediately started putting in a full day of bagging birds, planting birds and ducks, euthanizing ducks for the drag, etc. The next morning up again at 5AM, now it was my day to test. Got the dog ready and we ran our first and only NA all day. He did awesome, went to dinner, celebrated a little too. Got up on Sunday again at 5AM, took care of my dog and put in another full day of volunteering before ending the day, breaking down my "camp" and driving 3.5 hours back home thoroughly exhausted but very satisfied and somehow hooked on this!

I paid for breakfast and dinner but did get 2 days of free bagged lunches for volunteering (my old chapter charged handlers for lunch so I paid when I tested.)
Last edited by ryanr on Mon May 21, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Mon May 21, 2018 1:50 pm

I hear ya Ryan these dog games are definitely a lot of work and most of us are volunteers. Thing is AKC and AF put on similar events, look for judges, secure grounds, provide meals, etc and don’t require everyone involved to pay a membership fee. You register your dog, pay your entry and hit the road.

But in the grand scheme of things even with the required membership it’s still not as much as I pay each weekend for the other dog games. Especially for a one off test. Personally forced membership feels like a money grab but all these organizations wring money out of us one way or another.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ryanr » Mon May 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Understood.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Range Maggot » Mon May 21, 2018 5:34 pm

VHDF was developed to have a better understanding of a dogs traits and train-ability to help further the breeding lines to achieve the "perfect hunting dog". The core principles from NAHVDA are applied in VHDF, but VHDF created a better score card to help determine what a dog "does". For instance; A dog may score an 11 in duck search for VHDF which tells a story that there was something extremely difficult or challenging and the dog was able to complete the task, while NAHVDA score would be a 4 (leaving the question of did this dog only do the minimum or go above and beyond?). A dog may score an 8 or 9 in steadiness for VHDF which tells a story that the dog may have relocated but overall did a very good job, while the NAHVDA score may be a 2 (leaving the question did the dog break early or just relocate? VHDF would be a 6 or 7 if the dog broke early but held steady long enough to kill the bird or 3 to 5 if the dog pointed then scooped). Both tests are good, but for breed clubs VHDF is able to give a more comprehensive assessment of a particular dog on a particular day.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Don » Tue May 22, 2018 7:39 pm

You want to "put another title" on your dog to increase his credentials and marketable value. Why should any organization allow you to do that without reaping some of the benefits? You are using their credibility as a testing organization to promote your dog. Fair is fair.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Tue May 22, 2018 8:10 pm

Don wrote:You want to "put another title" on your dog to increase his credentials and marketable value. Why should any organization allow you to do that without reaping some of the benefits? You are using their credibility as a testing organization to promote your dog. Fair is fair.


This has been answered...
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby bwjohn » Tue May 22, 2018 8:35 pm

do clubs get anything in return from a membership fee? I thought it was or is a national membership fee? I couldn't imagine the AKC returning any money to clubs for FT/HT or any events.

does NAVHDA?
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Wed May 23, 2018 10:39 am

bwjohn wrote:do clubs get anything in return from a membership fee? I thought it was or is a national membership fee? I couldn't imagine the AKC returning any money to clubs for FT/HT or any events.

does NAVHDA?


AKC doesn’t return any money to clubs but the fee a club has to pay to make it an AKC sanctioned event isn’t much. A large chunk comes from paying judges, buying birds at $10-14 a head, housing birds, securing grounds, renting ports potty’s, trashcans, etc. After all that it’s hard for clubs to make money let alone break even from entry fees. It’s a collective effort of volunteers that make any of this dog game stuff happen.

Also another thing I didn’t really take into account at first is that with the AKC you’re going to spend $3-400 on a SH or MH Hunt Test title because of the multiple legs you are required to complete vs a UT pass which is going to cost $285-300 if you include the yearly membership, dog registration, and local club membership. So they’re all comparable when you start counting pennies.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby JONOV » Wed May 23, 2018 2:51 pm

3drahthaars wrote:I think that the whole purpose of the “testing system” has eroded since its foundation in the 19th century…

The reason for testing isn’t to determine the “best”; it is to determine “trends”. And, for that there needs to be some sort of registry to maintain and massage the data into digestible bites.

The concept of champions was something Bodo tried to avoid when the Invitational concept was proposed. He knew it defeated the purpose of the system.
The JGHV is no different… members chase those high scoring dogs as the great hopes to the breed. And, we see the flavor of the month breedings piling up each year… then, keep quiet about the tooth problems, etc. after the 14 or so litters have finally been tested after they hit the ground.

The reality is that test results should mainly indicate the success (or failure) of the breedings through a statistical comparison of offspring of common parents. Those superstars are “Jack S$!#” unless they have siblings or half-siblings that exhibit similar traits, otherwise they are simply flashes in the pan.

If you look back far enough, you will see that some pretty average dogs produced some very nice offspring (CONSISTENTLY)… Hence, the true purpose and implementation of the system.

Call it NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, or whatever… it can be valuable. But, it is only as useful as those who implement it.

Regards,

3ds

This...
The aims of NAVHDA, right there on page one, is to “...conduct tests...maintain records of such tests...and promote selective breeding.”

For this reason they declined the motion two years ago to allow dogs that were adopted or whatever without papers...the purpose of the testing is to gather as much info as possible for breeding.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby JTracyII » Wed May 23, 2018 9:49 pm

ForestDump wrote:
bwjohn wrote:do clubs get anything in return from a membership fee? I thought it was or is a national membership fee? I couldn't imagine the AKC returning any money to clubs for FT/HT or any events.

does NAVHDA?


AKC doesn’t return any money to clubs but the fee a club has to pay to make it an AKC sanctioned event isn’t much. A large chunk comes from paying judges, buying birds at $10-14 a head, housing birds, securing grounds, renting ports potty’s, trashcans, etc. After all that it’s hard for clubs to make money let alone break even from entry fees. It’s a collective effort of volunteers that make any of this dog game stuff happen.

Also another thing I didn’t really take into account at first is that with the AKC you’re going to spend $3-400 on a SH or MH Hunt Test title because of the multiple legs you are required to complete vs a UT pass which is going to cost $285-300 if you include the yearly membership, dog registration, and local club membership. So they’re all comparable when you start counting pennies.

In addition, with NAVHDA you get a monthly magazine subscription and access to people to help you learn to train your dog to a higher level for your money. I talked to a setter breeder one time that told me he recommends Navhda to all his buyers desptite him no longer being a member as he thought it was the best organization for learning to train bird dogs bar none. It seems you have plenty of experience with dogs though so for you possibly the latter is a mute point besides maybe the duck work training you would learn.

Also, if we are counting pennies don’t forget about the travel expenses to multiple events and time off work and away from family with AKC vs to a single NAVHDA test. That said, you will spend considerably more time and
money training for UT than a MH title. No doubt.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Urban_Redneck » Fri May 25, 2018 2:55 pm

a single NAVHDA test

and those results are recorded on the NAVHDA pedigree database. That seems to be the rub with some folk 8)
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 25, 2018 4:45 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
a single NAVHDA test

and those results are recorded on the NAVHDA pedigree database. That seems to be the rub with some folk 8)


I looked up a dog recently. The Breeder had tested the dog 4 times already at the UT level within a few months time in some crazed quest to put a UT title on the dog at an early age, and apparently before it was ready. Might be rubbing him the wrong way :lol:
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Urban_Redneck » Fri May 25, 2018 5:53 pm

Or a breeder that NA tests 4 pups and 3 no prize :puppydogeyes:

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