Breed Advice Needed

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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:01 pm

Sarge there have been numerous threads on this subject of Vdog breeds and cats. You might want to search on Cat and read them for varying input on the subject.

My experience is with GWPs. The best I have accomplished with my dogs has been to convince them to not kill our barn cat, at least when I am around. I would have never trusted any of them alone with that cat when I was not present. And they would kill any other cat they encountered at every opportunity. (We live on a farm so the cats they encounter are game killing feral vermin.)

The equation depends not only on the dog, but also the cat in my experience. The one barn cat we had spanned 3 different dogs. Key to those dogs not killing the cat was that cat was smart enough to remain completely passive around the dogs. If it had attempted the normal cat behavior of - raise up, hiss and strike out with its front paws it would have been toast.

That is what I can offer you in the way of my experience on the subject. Best of luck in your decision and your upcoming puppy.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby Sarge » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:43 pm

Thanks everyone...you all have me adequately convinced that the DD is going to have to wait until after the cats are gone. After reading up on PP's and Griffons I think I'm leaning more toward the Griffons...seems like they would suit my style of hunting a little better. Any breeders you all recommend? I live near Kansas City and would like to work with a breeder in the midwest so I can at least drive out to take a look at the parents in a hunting situation before making a decision.

Thanks!
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby Calvinator » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:52 pm

Sarge,
Adding any new dog regardless of breed could send those fragile cats into a meltdown mode and send them peeing in inappropriate places. Cats are weird creatures! I haven't really found what they are good for, but some call them the other white meat.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby Sarge » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:05 pm

Calvinator wrote:Sarge,
Adding any new dog regardless of breed could send those fragile cats into a meltdown mode and send them peeing in inappropriate places. Cats are weird creatures! I haven't really found what they are good for, but some call them the other white meat.


Very true.

I'm about to finish our basement...maybe I should make it into a 1,000 sqft cat sanctuary so I can get the dog I really want.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby ryanr » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:47 pm

Sarge wrote:Thanks everyone...you all have me adequately convinced that the DD is going to have to wait until after the cats are gone. After reading up on PP's and Griffons I think I'm leaning more toward the Griffons...seems like they would suit my style of hunting a little better. Any breeders you all recommend? I live near Kansas City and would like to work with a breeder in the midwest so I can at least drive out to take a look at the parents in a hunting situation before making a decision.

Thanks!


I think you're making a mistake to assume that as a breed, a PP or even possibly a Griff is somehow better around cats than a DD. And I've been around several PPs and the ones I've been around were about every bit the hunters that DDs were. All business in the field & water. Which is why I like them about as much as my Wirehairs.

As for cats, right now my 5.5 month old GWP goes to my sister's 2-3 days a week since I got her. They adopted 2 stray kittens whose mother had been run over. She has not tried to kill them but she is very focused on them. She's been up close with them a bunch and seems good but will not turn her attention away from them. So my sister usually blocks off their room with a sheet of plywood just so Hazel leaves them.alone and plays with her Labrador. I'm happy my pup is being somewhat sociized with cats but ive also schooled my sister in the breed and to not trust her alone with the cats. Now my 5yr old Wirehair never goes to their house because he would kill the cats in a second.

I think you have a decent chance of succeeding if you raise a pup with cats but are still vigilant throughout their lives and follow some simple rules, like never leaving the dog and cats unattended together. Also keep in mind the dynamic in the house might completely change if both are outside. Vigilance.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby roosterbrews » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:28 am

My PP tormented the cat but didn't hurt it. I would also throw in The Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer into the mix. Mine are awesome house dogs and supper hunters.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby JONOV » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:24 am

ryanr wrote:I think you have a decent chance of succeeding if you raise a pup with cats but are still vigilant throughout their lives and follow some simple rules, like never leaving the dog and cats unattended together. Also keep in mind the dynamic in the house might completely change if both are outside. Vigilance.

This. I think its a completely different scenario to introduce a cat into a house where a dog is firmly established, than to introduce a puppy into a house where the cats are established. The cats will hiss and avoid him, probably from day one, and when he gets close, as a puppy, is likely to learn to avoid them. At least that's been my experience. Stray cats are a different story though.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:48 am

JONOV wrote:
ryanr wrote:I think you have a decent chance of succeeding if you raise a pup with cats but are still vigilant throughout their lives and follow some simple rules, like never leaving the dog and cats unattended together. Also keep in mind the dynamic in the house might completely change if both are outside. Vigilance.

This. I think its a completely different scenario to introduce a cat into a house where a dog is firmly established, than to introduce a puppy into a house where the cats are established. The cats will hiss and avoid him, probably from day one, and when he gets close, as a puppy, is likely to learn to avoid them. At least that's been my experience. Stray cats are a different story though.


As with most things where animals are involved, results will vary. Last time I had a barn cat it was there on my place when I brought home a GWP puppy. I had already trained the old dog to leave the cat alone.

A few days after arriving it was time to try an introduction. The puppy approached the cat with normal curiosity with the cat appearing to be calm and unthreatened as he approached. Then the blankety blank cat with no warning struck out with a blow to the puppy's eye just about too quick for the human eye to see. The puppy yelped and retreated back towards me as I jumped up to intervene. I thought the blow had been a feinting jab which did not land but after examining the puppy I found out his eye lid and eyeball were scratched and bleeding.

The moment I jumped up the puppy wheeled around and started advancing towards the cat, hackles raised with a growing bark that sounded like it came from a dog much larger than this 9 week old puppy. He was ready to do battle with me as his backup. I reached down and picked him up so his grit did not get him into something he was not yet prepared to back up.

Time went on, the cat was smart enough to know it was in its best interest to not try that stunt again and it wisely became passive. The dog would have killed that cat in a heartbeat had it ever tried that behavior again.

Its a crap shoot and one best never left unsupervised is my experience. Peoples' tales of success offer no assurances that other combinations of different dogs and different cats will be the same is where I come out on it.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby crackerd » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:21 am

roosterbrews wrote:Mine are awesome house dogs and supper hunters.


Gotta love them supper hunters. But is it hunting brunch - or tapas - that makes them a true versatile?

Average Guy, a man after my own heartfelt palpitations for the good and bad (mostly good) about NAVDHA in the other thread...

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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby SMAbby » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:16 pm

Sarge wrote:
randomnut wrote:What kind of weather do you duck hunt in?




Regarding the cats; they are 12 years old...i'm afraid a dog that pesters them will lead to the cats "acting out" and peeing on the carpet, etc. .


My first thought is......if you cant teach the pup boundaries in regards tot he cats, then you will have a LONG road ahead of you with other, more difficult training.

To me the solution is simple. Make PLENTY of getaway zones for the cats and do it well before the pup comes. Cats LOVE to get high......ha, had to think about that one for a sec! :lol: :lol: 8) ... so make easy access to high places so they can get away if they are feeling pressure from the pup.They like a high vantage point. They still want to see what is going on. This will help them get use to pup and pup used to them.

From day 1
Teach the puppy that cats are OFF LIMITS. Doesnt have to be harsh, just firm and fair.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby Willie T » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:38 pm

PP's, Griff's, DD's, or Wirehairs Would all be good choices for what you want. The cat thing can be accomplished with any of them but it could also go wrong. My wife has a cat she is fond of. My PP knows it is off limits. He is almost a year and a half old. He tolerates that one cat but they are not buddies. Not sure what would happen if the two of them were left alone. The way he looks at the cat leads me to believe it's not in the cats best interest to find out at this time, nor mine to have to discuss it with the wife.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:12 am

Yes that is the point I emphasize - the crap shoot of leaving the dog and the cat alone unsupervised. Training the dog to leave the cat alone when the handler is present is very doable. When the handler is not present is iffy with the stakes being really high in the eyes of the cat lover.

I thought about this some more. Let's say you think you have done a nice job teaching your dog not to counter surf. Are you willing to leave mouse poison out on the counter of your mud/laundry room which your dog has access to while you are at work all day? I am betting and hoping not. The cost of being wrong even just once is unacceptable.

This dog and beloved house cat thing bears the same weight for some. I think Smabby's suggestion of escape routes has good merit but I also think if a DD gets pursuit in its mind the house could look pretty wrecked when you come home.

Sarge,

I am certain you could train the dog to leave the cat alone while you are present and can figure out a system to keep them separated while you are gone. Building a comfortable and secure outdoor kennel run for the dog while you are not around is one option, and the one I use. A DD is an excellent breed choice for the hunting you do and life on earth is too short to go through it not having the dog you want because of an old cat. If your Wife is willing to work with the managed risks I vote you research/select a good breeder and put a deposit down on a puppy.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby orhunter » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:54 am

I had to wait till my wife's cat died to get a dog. Didn't want to dump the wife but that might be your best option like Longhammer suggested.
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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby ANick » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:35 am

Willie T wrote:PP's, Griff's, DD's, or Wirehairs Would all be good choices for what you want. The cat thing can be accomplished with any of them but it could also go wrong. My wife has a cat she is fond of. My PP knows it is off limits. He is almost a year and a half old. He tolerates that one cat but they are not buddies. Not sure what would happen if the two of them were left alone. The way he looks at the cat leads me to believe it's not in the cats best interest to find out at this time, nor mine to have to discuss it with the wife.
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Discretion is a lovely thing. :)

I stopped by one of my Kansas sisters last year on the way home from So. Dak. (great place for a breed club meeting) with the pup last year to find that she had 3 youngish kittens. Call them younger adolescents. Two of these were bugnutz skittery. One was a pretty calm, friendly lad and calmly bold. Not that I'm much on cats, but I kinda liked that one.

Sis and I stepped out on the porch the morning after I got in, I had the pup (10 month old) on the lead, but the amount of lead and the placement geometry didn't look all that good when she went on point on the two skittery ones. I gotta admit, it was a very pretty point, but it had all the appearances that this was one of situations that just might not end all that well. The good news is that Herself is pretty steady on points so sliding over to get a handful of collar worked out well.

There was a little twitch from her when I got the handhold, the two skitterers did... and there was a bit of a dancing pup on the end of my arm for a moment while they bugged out.

The funny part was a few seconds later as the calm one stepped up behind the sister's leg to look around at the pup. I gave her a Down, which she promptly stretched into a bit of closure, but then put her nose on the deck. The cat slipped up a bit closer. The pup's tail wagged. Eventually, they got close enough to do a friendly nose sniff.

Before I pulled out to head home, they'd gotten a little more trusting and/or curious with each other. With time, those two might actually have co-habitated okay. The skittery pair? Think snowballs in August. My thought is that this particular pup, with the right cat could do okay. It won't happen, as I said, I'm not much of a cat person. But it could. I think maybe.

There's a bit of a requirement for the right cat. But the right pup in the right frame of mind too. After all, one person can't be friends either.

So, Deutsch Langhaars... well, it could happen. But think AG has the right of it.

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Re: Breed Advice Needed

Postby Highlander » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:07 pm

my DK grew up next to a mama cat and her kitty.
She knew that they where part of the tribe and did not mess with the mama cat, but loved playing around the kitty. They were buddies.

-----

Also keep in mind that DK's are as capable water hunters as any other Continental breeds. (if not batter in my opinion)
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