Does thes strike you as odd?

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby JONOV » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:57 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Just a few thoughts.
theres no reason for a training day to be a waste of time. There is always something that can be worked on or taught. You just have to know what those things are. Marking, blind retrieves, increasing the dogs knowledge that if you say somethings there, theres something there.

It is pointless to compare hunting to training. They are not the same. Tests/training are used to identify and develope "SKILLS" that a hunting dog should have. Not to imitate hunting.

Should you hunt the dog or go to training day??
Depends on a lot of variables. Has the dog been hunting and shown he needs work in a certain area? then perhaps, hunting is not the best move.

So lets look at a dogs first duck hunt. Everything is new. His learning curve is very steep, from getting up early and getting into the truck to heading out to the blind. Its All new.
So you are set up in the blind. (also new if you haven't prepared). Ducks come in and you dump one in the decoys. dog gets the retrieve. Same thing happens as you get your limit. Every time the dog gets a duck out of the decoys, his learning curve flattens out to a straight line. He can get 7 ducks a year or 5000, if they are all in the decoys the dog isn't learning anything. His learning curve is flat. But say duck 5001 is a cripple and sails off 200 yards. The dog will most likely run out to the decoys and hunt because thats where they all are!! But his learning curve took a turn up. But say we taught pup to mark to 200 yards or more. duck 5001 that sails out there is a bump in the learning curve, but not as steep as without training and actually very beneficial. Next one that goes out there will be easier. Pretty soon all the 200 yard birds are no brainers. They may get there without truing, its just zoo much faster with it.
Lets say we thought pup was FF. But he's chewing birds. Is it better to hunt him or train him? He's breaking out of the blind and flaring birds, better to train or hunt?

The goal of training is to keep the dogs learning curve when hunting as flat as possible. A bird goes down 200 yards out should not be a huge spike in the learning curve. It may be a slight bump, but it shouldn't be a surprise.

A dog will learn many skills with time and hunting. But why wait until hunting for him to learn skills we can teach???

Ive seen quite a few dogs that should have been in a lot more training days before they went afield.

For those that believe, tests don't look like training. Again, you are correct, but they are not supposed to. Don't knock teasing /training because you don't participate. Don't knock those that Test/Trial but don't hunt. Many of them are instrumental in the quality of the dogs we have today.

My young dog is 10 months old. Ive been training her to kennel in her blind starting a few months ago by teaching her to kennel and then throwing bumpers. The last few weeks, I have been putting pigeons in the launchers in the decoys, having her kennel and blowing the duck call, yelling "taken em" "kill em" and then popping a bird and shooting it for her. she snow steady until released. so when I take her for her first real hunt, how steep will her curve be???? Much, Much, Much flatter.

It takes as much or more effort to train than to hunt.


All good points. There is something to be said for context. The level of training to take your dog out and sit on a beaver pond with you or you and one or two buddies, is different than the level of training before taking your dog out with 6 people in a pit blind on a flooded rice field. That said, I think there is only so much a dog can learn about duck hunting, recovering ducks, the behavior of a cripple, etc, without going out and doing it.
JONOV
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:16 pm

mgrucker wrote:I guess this is as good a place as any for my rant and it's not specifically aimed at you... When I was researching getting my first dog a bit over 3 years ago this forum was very helpful. I thought that most of the stuff I read was supportive and trying to help people out. Since I've come back recently it seems to have changed quite a bit. Now people who don't hunt enough (and "enough" is apparently defined as how much a wealthy retired person can) don't deserve a versatile dog. People who don't hunt enough species don't deserve a versatile dog or is somehow doing a disservice to the versatile dog community.

I only hunt grouse and pheasant and got a pudelpointer. He's the best pheasant dog I've ever hunted with and I couldn't be happier with my choice. What I do with my dog doesn't affect you or anybody else in any way. If I'm doing a disservice to this "community" then I gotta say I don't really want to be a part of it anyways.


Well does not take Sherlock Holmes to see you are still chapped off at the responses you received when you asked for advice on getting a second dog. Hopefully you will at some point mature a little and learn to not ask for advice on the internet if you only want to hear what you want to hear. I am sure your pudelpointer is a real nice dog and I am glad you enjoy him.

I agree it is no one else's business how many dogs you choose to own or what you do with them. But you asked for input and received it from multiple sources. Use it or discard it. But it is past time for you to stop whining about it and move on.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby mgrucker » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:23 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Well does not take Sherlock Holmes to see you are still chapped off at the responses you received when you asked for advice on getting a second dog.


I definitely worded the title of that wrong, it should have been "What are the things to consider about having 2 dogs" or something like that. I'm not mad that some people said not to get another, I've decided not to at this time. What I'm pointing out is that I'm seeing some elitist (probably not right word, I don't know what else to call it) attitude that seems out of touch with regular people. Probably 80% of my NAVHDA chapter doesn't meet some of the made up standards that are posted here and I don't think any less of them. They are doing something they enjoy and their dogs enjoy the work they do with them. You can think I'm just whining or whatever you want but I thought if we're ranting about people out doing something with their dog I'd throw in my rant about people complaining about it on the internet.
mgrucker
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:23 am
Location: MN

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:45 pm

I gave you excellent thoughts on things to consider relative to acquiring another dog based on my experience doing so multiple times, for years at a time. Pointing/backing, Feeding, Exercising, Retrieving, Pecking/Pack order challenges, the Productivity or Not of one handler and two dogs while hunting pheasants, Balancing time in the field so a young dog does not become a me-too dog, with the risk of neither dog getting sufficient time on the ground were all included in my comments in your post. You choose how to use it or ignore it.

I recognized your shot at me with the "wealthy retired person" remark and responded in kind so no need to dance around it. I have not forgotten my path to get where I am now and am not at all out of touch. I remember well my 60 to 100 hour work weeks, getting up at 4:30 am working out, getting the dogs out of the kennel for a run around the 40 acres in the dark with me wearing a headlight, doing the same when I got home after a 12 hour day, working with puppies in the yard under the flood lights in the winter months and then in the fields and water in the spring and summer months, using every day of my vacation to hunt, shooting my bow in the backyard 5 or more days a week ... I hunted something from Sept through Feb and then spring turkeys again in April. It is what I do. I have no special talents, but I do have drive to pursue my goals and expect the same of others.

I did not tee up your OP or this one, just another voice in the choir. I am just some nut who likes to see dogs painstakingly bred for decades for specific hunting purposes used as much as possible for those purposes. When prompted, my comments reflect that.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby JONOV » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

mgrucker wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:But to get a versatile dog to just hunt ducks or just hunt upland or just blood track or worst yet to just test (and in some cases just breed) is a disservice to the versatile dog community. The true "test" is in the field.

So, if I were strictly a bird hunter I'd get a Brit, ES, or EP.


I guess this is as good a place as any for my rant and it's not specifically aimed at you... When I was researching getting my first dog a bit over 3 years ago this forum was very helpful. I thought that most of the stuff I read was supportive and trying to help people out. Since I've come back recently it seems to have changed quite a bit. Now people who don't hunt enough (and "enough" is apparently defined as how much a wealthy retired person can) don't deserve a versatile dog. People who don't hunt enough species don't deserve a versatile dog or is somehow doing a disservice to the versatile dog community.

I only hunt grouse and pheasant and got a pudelpointer. He's the best pheasant dog I've ever hunted with and I couldn't be happier with my choice. What I do with my dog doesn't affect you or anybody else in any way. If I'm doing a disservice to this "community" then I gotta say I don't really want to be a part of it anyways.


Its about context. Allow me to provide you some. I don't think 3D's is implying that you're doing a disservice to your Pudelpointer by not duck hunting. Frankly, I'd probably give up my duck hunting in North Carolina to have what you have.

You live in Idaho, IIRC...you can probably hunt upland birds and actually find them as many days as you care to hunt. In theory, you have 10 species to hunt, though I understand for most guys practically speaking they hunt two or three regularly and I'm sure some of the 10 listed in the regs are few and far between. You can apparently hunt Sundays on public land.

If you live in North Carolina, you wait for a woodcock flight and hope you can get into them.

Oh, and by the way:

You can't hunt public land on Sunday. It sucks for a guy that works for a living.
You can't shoot migratory birds (dove, woodcock, ducks, geese) on Sunday whether or not your on public land or private. If you work a day job you get one day a week!
There are few wild quail to speak of; 47% of quail hunters in a given season will not harvest one.
No pheasants, aside from a small isolated population that requires both a ferry and a 4x4, or your own ocean worthy boat to access...
Grouse are there to be had. Practically we're looking at a three hour drive into the mountains from Raleigh, before you start scouting. There could be more of them, but the tree huggers won't let us cut the National Forests, so you don't have much for habitat. Guys hunt hard living in the mountains and are happy to shoot four in a season. Oh, and since most Grouse habitat is public, you can't hunt Sundays.

Duck hunting, while far from being a North Dakota or Arkansas, is the most viable option for many hunters to get out and shoot birds. Ducks can be had in most of the state on public lands, and is even good by most standards on some parts of the coast (but you aren't really allowed to hunt there if you don't live there.) If you come home with a limit of wood ducks, people will say "Nice." They won't say "wow, I remember when my daddy used to shoot those, didn't know we had any left" or "which game farm you go to?" like they do quail.

So, on one of the very few days where we can expect to have a successful hunt, and you see a bunch of people more interested in playing dog games, it is a little different than a random weekend during a three month hunting season. You know the situation is bad when you look at states like Illinois or Pennsylvania and get jealous.

Its a cruel bit of irony. I moved here from the Midwest for my career. When I lived in the Midwest, I was too poor and busy to keep a dog, much less a hunting dog. I wanted one in the worst way. I moved to North Carolina to advance my career. I now had a job and time that allowed me to hunt a lot more. A year later, I met my wife, and a year and a half after that, before we even got engaged, we put a deposit down on a dog. I picked the breeder since he had the most hunting pictures with his dogs of the other two I talked to, real hunting pics not game farm glory shots. It was a bad way to pick a dog but I didn't know what else to look for. I got a dog as soon as I had someone (my wife) that could take care of it the one or two days a week that I travel (typically I'm gone for a 14-15 day once or twice a week.) I hunt as much as most any married man can expect to and rarely hear about it from my wife, but other practical constraints do stop me from getting the dog out as much as I'd like.

I do often wonder if I would have even bothered to go to a NAVHDA meeting ever, at all, if I lived in Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, etc, much less Kansas or the Dakotas.
JONOV
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:16 pm

Jonov,
I dont understand your point. Why would a dog need to be trained any differently for a hunt with 1 person versus 6 or 10 or twenty????

There is a limit to what a dog can learn without actually duck hunting. But there is a LOT we can teach that will make the dogs learning curve once in the blind, not as steep. And once in the blind, there is relatively little the dog will learn after getting 4 or 5 ducks out of the decoys. It will be the ones that don't land in the decoys that will teach.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby JONOV » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:47 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Jonov,
I dont understand your point. Why would a dog need to be trained any differently for a hunt with 1 person versus 6 or 10 or twenty????

There is a limit to what a dog can learn without actually duck hunting. But there is a LOT we can teach that will make the dogs learning curve once in the blind, not as steep. And once in the blind, there is relatively little the dog will learn after getting 4 or 5 ducks out of the decoys. It will be the ones that don't land in the decoys that will teach.

The difference between hunting in a pit blind vs lying in the weeds/timber, the difference between one or two guns going and 6 (18 shots potentially on a flock vs 3 or 6,) the difference between two or three ducks falling best case scenario and six or eight...you can take a few teachable moments without worrying about the rest of the party. You’re correct about picking up dead ducks 49 yards away...but you also don’t have to worry about your dog heading out for a cripple to figure that out and flaring ducks.
JONOV
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby LongHammer » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Jonov,
I dont understand your point. Why would a dog need to be trained any differently for a hunt with 1 person versus 6 or 10 or twenty????

There is a limit to what a dog can learn without actually duck hunting. But there is a LOT we can teach that will make the dogs learning curve once in the blind, not as steep. And once in the blind, there is relatively little the dog will learn after getting 4 or 5 ducks out of the decoys. It will be the ones that don't land in the decoys that will teach.


So what you're saying is hunting makes hunting dogs. Training makes hunting dog starter kits or test dogs.
"The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln
LongHammer
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:17 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:47 pm

Jonov,

From what you described, there is no difference.

We often hunt what you describe. 2 to eight or more hunters. 2 sometimes 3 dogs. Duck blinds or field blinds. Swamps or open grass fileds.Dogs don't care how many hunters there are or birds that are shot. Skills are the same. Dogs don't care how many birds are down, if they are prepared. Birds in the decoys are easy. Cripples that sail require handling skills. Do you really think the dog is counting shots? The only shot the dog is counting is the first one. After that , this is what the dog is focused on. THE LAST BIRD DOWN and getting RELEASED. The one thing they learn from hunting that is hard to replicate is cripples. The dogs do learn to watch for cripples. When they see one they will run through the decoys, past the dead birds to go run down that cripple 300 yards out. Cant teach that, but I can teach that birds do go 300 yards!!! So when pup sees this cripple going down 300 yards out, he KNOWS its 300 yards out and will go that far and not hunt short.

Look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKKTcDZaME As you watch the video, think about the skills a dog needs for this hunt. Needs to be rock solid in his blind. Needs to understand multiple birds down. Needs to understand that sometimes 8 guys may miss 24 times. Needs to be able be able to handle the cripple that sails off 400 yards. This is a go pro video, so know that that field is huge.
The dog is only sent out towards the end because these birds all landed before legal shooting time.The dog was sent to get the birds to leave so they would come back. Birds aren't bothered much by a dog.but a person is a different story.

Teachable moments are not dependent on the number in the party, they are dependent on the personality of the people in the party.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:37 am

No one has a Waterfowl dog versed in many forms of hunting - (large boats, small boats, marsh platforms, dog blinds, pit blinds, makeshift blinds, fields, small water, large water, rivers, ducks, geese ... ) without training and hunting. Takes both.

Training introductions for a young dog prior to hunting set them up for success. A dog that gets hunted alot learns to search for downed birds where 90% of them fall which is 50 yards and in. It takes training to teach them to expand beyond that and using 100% on the job training is going to loose more birds meanwhile than a dog which gets schooled in long marks and searches during the off season.

The video provides an example of what cannot be fully taught in training, e.g. large numbers of birds circling and clamoring for a long while prior to committing to the decoy spread. It puts a young dog to the test to remain still in its place vs boiling over with excitement and breaking. Particularly when a hen lands in the decoys at 10 yards while the rest of the flock continues to circle. Can't duplicate all that with pigeons, but the foundation starts with being taught to remain steady in training using live birds. Without that training prior to hunting you have poor odds of a hard charging young dog remaining steady under live fire.

The need for both training and hunting seems self evident to me. Ideally training is done when the hunting seasons are not open so the maximum benefit of both can be realized.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:22 am

Several comments have hit on the subject of NAVHDA training days. I have found the quality varies by the Chapter. And the quality of those providing direction to new members varies even more with a good deal of it being more harmful than beneficial. My observation is it is a minefield to navigate for the uninformed.

No dog gets trained at training days (or without hunting as posted elsewhere). They are too short and infrequent. Training requires daily work. The best members get together and train frequently outside of Chapter training days. I encourage Newbies to observe alot and then do their best to sort through the personalities they met and find an experienced training partner they can work with on a frequent basis. Pay attention to how their dogs perform and progress as the best indication of what that person has to offer.

Training dogs to a higher level benefits from some human assistants along the way so it can be approached with a mutual benefit to both the experienced and the newbie participants. Many experienced people are more than willing to help out a dedicated but inexperienced person with their promising young dog, as real dog persons enjoy seeing them develop whether they own them or not. Look for ways to make it beneficial in both directions by offering to help them in training their dogs where you can be of assistance.

But it probably won't happen in the middle of hunting season if you are hooking up with the right person to the OP's point.

In the summer of 2016 when my pup was 5 months old we took his first overnight stay road trip to a NAVHDA chapter training day. It provided alot of excellent exposure I cannot duplicate on a remote rural farm. I made arrangements prior to the trip such that I could take my pup out to the training grounds the Friday evening before the Sat training day. When I arrived there were two Chapter members assisting each other working their dogs in a cattail marsh on duck search after they got off work. That is the behavior of the folks who can best add value to assisting a person new to training their first gun dog.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby JONOV » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:10 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Jonov,

From what you described, there is no difference.

I don't know how you can't see the difference between the situations I described. They are only similar in the game being pursued.
Kiger2 wrote:We often hunt what you describe. 2 to eight or more hunters. 2 sometimes 3 dogs. Duck blinds or field blinds. Swamps or open grass fileds.Dogs don't care how many hunters there are or birds that are shot. Skills are the same. Dogs don't care how many birds are down, if they are prepared. Birds in the decoys are easy. Cripples that sail require handling skills. Do you really think the dog is counting shots? The only shot the dog is counting is the first one. After that , this is what the dog is focused on. THE LAST BIRD DOWN and getting RELEASED. The one thing they learn from hunting that is hard to replicate is cripples. The dogs do learn to watch for cripples. When they see one they will run through the decoys, past the dead birds to go run down that cripple 300 yards out. Cant teach that, but I can teach that birds do go 300 yards!!! So when pup sees this cripple going down 300 yards out, he KNOWS its 300 yards out and will go that far and not hunt short.
I would hope I don't have to teach my dog to go 300 yards, especially if he sees the bird. My dog did that at 4.5 months old. He was too little to bring it back, but he ran it down and dispatched a crippled Canada Goose. A dog I have to teach to run 300 yards for a bird that he sees fall isn't much use to me.

Kiger2 wrote:Look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKKTcDZaME As you watch the video, think about the skills a dog needs for this hunt. Needs to be rock solid in his blind. Needs to understand multiple birds down. Needs to understand that sometimes 8 guys may miss 24 times. Needs to be able be able to handle the cripple that sails off 400 yards. This is a go pro video, so know that that field is huge.
The dog is only sent out towards the end because these birds all landed before legal shooting time.The dog was sent to get the birds to leave so they would come back. Birds aren't bothered much by a dog.but a person is a different story.
Your video proves my point. The level of training, finish, polish, whatever for a hunt like that is infinitely higher than having your dog sit next to you in a beaver pond or impoundment. Staying steady for that until sent is a bit different than having 14 seconds of wood ducks coming in and shooting two of them. I can see the dog (I'm not in a layout blind,) I can keep the dog close to me (harder in a layout blind,) I can even grab his collar or hold a leash if he's getting unsteady, and you couldn't really do any of that on the video you posted. It requires a very well trained dog. Having the dog in his own layout blind and staying steady there is a much harder objective than keeping your dog steady on the bank next to you in a makeshift blind or even a canoe. And in my non-expert mind, one is a good building block to get to the other.

Kiger2 wrote:Teachable moments are not dependent on the number in the party, they are dependent on the personality of the people in the party

That's definitely true. Unless its your brother, father, son and nephew, its going to be hard to have people on the same page 100% of the time. Someone is there and is bloodthirsty for ducks, someone wants a nice hunt and wants to see the ducks work the decoys really well, someone whose goal is to blow the kazoo at every dark speck in the sky. And, lets be honest, I'm less self-conscious and nervous about my dog's performance if its just a close friend and me. I don't think I'm all that unique in that regard. If I'm on a real quality hunt, with six hunters, I'm most likely a guest, and need to be cognizant that the other people might not give a ratsazz about my goals for the dog.

AverageGuy wrote:Several comments have hit on the subject of NAVHDA training days. I have found the quality varies by the Chapter. And the quality of those providing direction to new members varies even more with a good deal of it being more harmful than beneficial. My observation is it is a minefield to navigate for the uninformed.

No dog gets trained at training days (or without hunting as posted elsewhere). They are too short and infrequent. Training requires daily work. The best members get together and train frequently outside of Chapter training days. I encourage Newbies to observe alot and then do their best to sort through the personalities they met and find an experienced training partner they can work with on a frequent basis. Pay attention to how their dogs perform and progress as the best indication of what that person has to offer.

Training dogs to a higher level benefits from some human assistants along the way so it can be approached with a mutual benefit to both the experienced and the newbie participants. Many experienced people are more than willing to help out a dedicated but inexperienced person with their promising young dog, as real dog persons enjoy seeing them develop whether they own them or not. Look for ways to make it beneficial in both directions by offering to help them in training their dogs where you can be of assistance.

But it probably won't happen in the middle of hunting season if you are hooking up with the right person to the OP's point.

In the summer of 2016 when my pup was 5 months old we took his first overnight stay road trip to a NAVHDA chapter training day. It provided alot of excellent exposure I cannot duplicate on a remote rural farm. I made arrangements prior to the trip such that I could take my pup out to the training grounds the Friday evening before the Sat training day. When I arrived there were two Chapter members assisting each other working their dogs in a cattail marsh on duck search after they got off work. That is the behavior of the folks who can best add value to assisting a person new to training their first gun dog.
Generally speaking, I learn more during a training day than my dog. I look at it as a time to talk to folks that have trained a bunch of dogs, that have trained and passed the UT test, to pick the brains of a judge or two if they're there, to listen to a pro trainer which they often have. You can only read or learn so much without saying "Look at what I'm trying to overcome/work past." Also, the chance to "practice" for upcoming tests in as close to the real thing as you can replicate in one place.

The notable exception was the NA test, specifically with the pheasant track.
JONOV
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby J D Patrick » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:18 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I,,,,... I hunted something from Sept through Feb and then spring turkeys again in April. It is what I do. I have no special talents, but I do have drive to pursue my goals and expect the same of others. .



we must be related somehow with that couple of sentences,,,,especially the bold part!! :D
J D Patrick
Started
Started
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:33 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby Willie T » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 pm

AverageGuy, spot on. Although you are far more adept at putting it in print, I get the impression through your posts, we have traveled some parallel paths my friend. My simplistic way of putting it for someone who is learning is to seek out individuals who walk the walk rather than talk the talk.
To the guys discussing a dogs retrieving range. I firmly believe that even the best dogs benefit greatly from establishing range in training. When watching dogs work in the field it is obvious which dogs have been set up to succeed when it comes to long sailers. To watch a dog and handler that can deal with that scenario routinely and effectively is a thing of beauty that still makes the hair on my arms stand on end. We all set the bar differently based on what we hunt and know.
Willie
Last edited by Willie T on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Willie T
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Does thes strike you as odd?

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:44 pm

Average guy. Very good post.

Jonov. You would be surprised how easy it would be to get your dog to fail on marked birds. I could easily show you your dog is useless by your definition.
If we had a training day together I could show the holes in your dogs marking and how to fill them. Your young dog did a nice job, but don't assume he's not going to fail.

Your hunting scenario examples do not require a different skill set. Dog needs to be steady as the ducks come in , just as steady as when they are in their blind in the field. I don't need to have a leash or grab a color. I have the e collar to correct infractions. But before we go hunt, we have worked on these scenarios. So when we first start hunting the dog, the dogs learning curve in whatever blind they are in is not nearly as steep. If you are having to use a leash, you have not done enough preparation.

I also want to point out that sometimes because of life, we don't have the time we need to get the dog really prepared. I get that. If thats the case then by all means use whatever tool you need to get the job done, just be honest about how prepared the dog is.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests