Bidable dogs?

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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby STait » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:01 pm

I guess it really depends on the breed and what you want from your dogs. In my breed I've had dogs that weren't "biddable" and I finally realized they were worthless for upland hunting. However, the lack of independence and extreme drive to hunt in my dogs is also worthless IMO. So, I think balance is a good word to use in my case.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:37 pm

Your right Steve. It is about balance.

GH, the first thing my dogs learn is that they never take a swipe at me without dire consequences. They can challenge me as to what I tell them....but.... that is as far as it goes. I can give them a command that they know and they will look me in the eye and alter it to suit them. With dogs like these, that is good. They win....I win. Can I make them do it to the letter? Sure I can, but, I would have to break their spirit to do it. I am sure you have met dogs like this. Are they biddable? No way, but there is a way to get them to work with you and that is by letting them win too...to a point.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby STait » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:25 pm

Yes, you both win, because you don’t have to break their spirit to get what you want to see naturally! Exactly why I couldn’t use the ones I deemed worthless. Because I would have to break their spirit to get what I wanted. So much nicer to have it naturally.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:10 am

hicntry wrote:Your right Steve. It is about balance.

GH, the first thing my dogs learn is that they never take a swipe at me without dire consequences. They can challenge me as to what I tell them....but.... that is as far as it goes. I can give them a command that they know and they will look me in the eye and alter it to suit them. With dogs like these, that is good. They win....I win. Can I make them do it to the letter? Sure I can, but, I would have to break their spirit to do it. I am sure you have met dogs like this. Are they biddable? No way, but there is a way to get them to work with you and that is by letting them win too...to a point.


I wonder if what you like in a dog and what most on here have grown to like is so different because the types of hunting we have done/do is so different. I would guess being biddable is not something strongly preferred in the hound dog circles for example.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:37 am

JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:Your right Steve. It is about balance.

GH, the first thing my dogs learn is that they never take a swipe at me without dire consequences. They can challenge me as to what I tell them....but.... that is as far as it goes. I can give them a command that they know and they will look me in the eye and alter it to suit them. With dogs like these, that is good. They win....I win. Can I make them do it to the letter? Sure I can, but, I would have to break their spirit to do it. I am sure you have met dogs like this. Are they biddable? No way, but there is a way to get them to work with you and that is by letting them win too...to a point.


I wonder if what you like in a dog and what most on here have grown to like is so different because the types of hunting we have done/do is so different. I would guess being biddable is not something strongly preferred in the hound dog circles for example.


I think you are on to something JT. Track and Tree/Bay dogs have to work with a great deal more independence than our bird dogs do. Hounds need to go where ever the track leads them with no concern for where their Hunter is. And they need to stay with the game for long periods of time treeing or baying until the Hunter arrives. Far different tasks than the "in touch" partnerships we have with our bird dogs. Alot of excellent hounds are kind of timid with Humans but completely bold when tracking/treeing/baying. They are wired completely different than any other dogs I have worked with.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:14 am

Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:32 am

hicntry wrote:Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.


So, given that hound guys/big game guys want a different type of dog than those needing a bit more control and bidability, such as when upland hunting or duck hunting, maybe what dog a guy has in his kennel has less to do with the ability of a guy to control or deal with a dominant/less bidable dog than what he needs for the type of hunting he does.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:30 pm

JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.


So, given that hound guys/big game guys want a different type of dog than those needing a bit more control and bidability, such as when upland hunting or duck hunting, maybe what dog a guy has in his kennel has less to do with the ability of a guy to control or deal with a dominant/less bidable dog than what he needs for the type of hunting he does.


The OP just asked what biddable meant to people. GH gave the perfect answer in as much as it an easy handling dog that wants to please. I merely described what kind of dog is, more than likely, not going to be what vdog owners are no looking for. There are dominate dogs even in the vdog world. This is where the discussion of dog handling comes in....versus training in my mind. No one in the discussion as far as I looked at it was in agreement. Most people do not like working with really dominate dogs because they have a "training" mentality rather than a handling mentality. Training mentality requires perfection. Not all dogs are suited for the perfection they require. Dog handling is a different ball of wax. It is the ability to work with the hard core dogs in a way that they will give you every thing they have, which makes most biddable dogs look like pikers. The problem is, trainers want the to do it their way because it makes them look good. The dominate type of dog, if handled right, will make most biddable dogs look bad. But, they do it their way.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby ForestDump » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:51 pm

Biddable, easy to work and live with. Not much breaking needed.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby ryanr » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:11 pm

hicntry wrote:Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.


So would we. You don't get many birds with a dog stuck to your side but you do with a dog that gets out there and finds birds without wanting to hunt solely for itself. Running dogs on boars or cats or coons is a different game than hunting upland birds or waterfowl. However it doesn't mean soft dogs are required, that's a terribly wrong assumption. In fact, soft dogs don' t really cut it as versatile hunting dogs.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:18 am

Ryan, Ryan, Ryan,
Have you learned nothing???? We kill LOTS of birds with dogs that by your definition, " Stick" to our side. A close working dog is not pleasurable to you. Doesn't mean you cant shoot birds with them. I debunked that myth years ago.


On Biddable. Dogs do not do things to please us. They don't go get the paper for you because they know it will make you happy. They do it because they derive pleasure from it, they get the pat on the head and "Good Rover".

A biddable dog is a dog that will bend to our will because they derive pleasure or reward from it. Independence is a direct conflict to biddability.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby STait » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:42 am

hicntry wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.


So, given that hound guys/big game guys want a different type of dog than those needing a bit more control and bidability, such as when upland hunting or duck hunting, maybe what dog a guy has in his kennel has less to do with the ability of a guy to control or deal with a dominant/less bidable dog than what he needs for the type of hunting he does.


The OP just asked what biddable meant to people. GH gave the perfect answer in as much as it an easy handling dog that wants to please. I merely described what kind of dog is, more than likely, not going to be what vdog owners are no looking for. There are dominate dogs even in the vdog world. This is where the discussion of dog handling comes in....versus training in my mind. No one in the discussion as far as I looked at it was in agreement. Most people do not like working with really dominate dogs because they have a "training" mentality rather than a handling mentality. Training mentality requires perfection. Not all dogs are suited for the perfection they require. Dog handling is a different ball of wax. It is the ability to work with the hard core dogs in a way that they will give you every thing they have, which makes most biddable dogs look like pikers. The problem is, trainers want the to do it their way because it makes them look good. The dominate type of dog, if handled right, will make most biddable dogs look bad. But, they do it their way.


I think I know what you're talking about Don, and believe that only certain trainers that have been doing it for a long time have the skill set required to train or handle that type of dog you are talking about. And, those trainers appear to love that type of dog. And, even some of those trainers don't have the skill to deal with a dog that is softer. The best trainers can deal with all types of dogs and bring the best out of them.

But, for me, I don't have the time or the skill set to train "perfection" and would rather hunt behind dogs that "naturally" want to look back and see if I'm coming or which direction I'm going so they can adjust. It all comes back to balance. Balance between biddability and independence.

Here's something I haven't heard anyone mention....Intelligence.....Does intelligence have a factor in biddability??
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:02 am

It might STait, but varies is my experience. I have had some wicked smart dogs that were more independent than biddable. They made excellent dogs. Maybe my best ones in the field, but the process to get them there and keep them there was more taxing than the Biddable ones. I will put up with it if the dog is talented enough, but as I age I appreciate the Biddable more than when I was younger.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby JONOV » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:30 am

hicntry wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:Excellent point JTracey. I get rid of dogs that want to stay with me when hunting.


So, given that hound guys/big game guys want a different type of dog than those needing a bit more control and bidability, such as when upland hunting or duck hunting, maybe what dog a guy has in his kennel has less to do with the ability of a guy to control or deal with a dominant/less bidable dog than what he needs for the type of hunting he does.


The OP just asked what biddable meant to people. GH gave the perfect answer in as much as it an easy handling dog that wants to please. I merely described what kind of dog is, more than likely, not going to be what vdog owners are no looking for. There are dominate dogs even in the vdog world. This is where the discussion of dog handling comes in....versus training in my mind. No one in the discussion as far as I looked at it was in agreement. Most people do not like working with really dominate dogs because they have a "training" mentality rather than a handling mentality. Training mentality requires perfection. Not all dogs are suited for the perfection they require. Dog handling is a different ball of wax. It is the ability to work with the hard core dogs in a way that they will give you every thing they have, which makes most biddable dogs look like pikers. The problem is, trainers want the to do it their way because it makes them look good. The dominate type of dog, if handled right, will make most biddable dogs look bad. But, they do it their way.


I think, as has been alluded to, that bid-ability and train-ability might be two different things. And, that there are different traits that are sometimes, but not always, related to bid-ability and trainability. Energy level, dominance, prey drive, and intelligence all probably affect it and can be confused for it.

Field trial line labs can be really high octane dogs. They can take a lot of pressure. But the way they relate and work in close conjunction with their handlers is extremely impressive to me. I would call them biddable. But, if you don't work the dog to take off some of the edge, you'll never see that. Compare that to a Chesapeake, bred to guard the decoys and boat, retrieve independently in the worst conditions, and not bred selectively over the years for its ability to quickly take instruction. The Chessie is probably less "bidable," but not so much as to be hard to train.

You hear about people wanting Border Collies...highly intelligent, energetic, work in close proximity with a shepherd in theory, but not a good suburban house dog if you can't really direct that energy. And they aren't dogs known to be particularly dominant.

Or a Malinois/Dutch Shepherd that was bred to bite. They clicker train them just like they teach you at a Petsmart puppy class. But if you don't challenge them, and work their energy out, you're going to have problems. Not a dog for a novice or even a journeyman, but I would imagine that anyone with a moderately firm personality, a willingness to walk and run the dog, could train the dogs to do a bunch of things no problem. That might not make it a good idea to own one as a pet, but still...

Think about someone breeding pointers for AA Field Trials...he probably doesn't care if the dog isn't biddable to sit, stay, roll over, fetch...But the dog better stay in front of the horse, relate to the handler, etc...A dog that doesn't stay in front, that runs to the corner of the earth without regard to the handler? Probably not much good...Since they seem to breed bunches of dogs looking for the one, I can't imagine those dogs make it and are likely washed out in a hurry. A dog that's a 50-50 proposition to show in time at the end of judgement? Not much use I would guess no matter what kind of race he runs. Also, if the handler can make it do what he wants 800 yards away, don't you think he can keep it and make it do what he wants 100 yards away if he went Grouse hunting in the big woods?

Similarly with Hicntry's terriers...He seems (and I could be way off) to want a combination of a hound and a Draht/DK...biddable to do what he wants, driven enough to get out there, game to engage bears or boars. From what I've seen of Tucco on this site, it seems like you have him extremely well trained, socialized etc...he may not be a dog for a shrinking violet but that isn't to say he's not biddable.

My dog is extremely biddable most of the time. He's also docile. But he can certainly work independently of me and has a high prey drive, and is game enough that as a puppy small enough for me to carry he ran down and dispatched a wounded goose. He's what I would mostly call "soft," he doesn't require much pressure to do what you want him to. But, he will challenge me...He knows that if I try and give a command while I'm on my phone or walking our other dog, I have a limited means of enforcing it. I had to pick up our 40 lb foster dog in my arms this week to run him down for being a turd and not listening.

When I think about dogs that are not bidable I think of dogs that aren't going to take much to training at all, no matter who trains them. Deer hunters around here run hounds on deer...Best case scenario, they can get the dogs back in the truck box at the end of the day because they collar broke them. Cool dogs, but not biddable. They aren't bred with any inclination or expectation that they work with you...just that they scent, run deer with good endurance and make a lot of noise doing it. That's it. Whether you get a docile submissive one or a bold dominant one, you aren't going to make much headway training it. Same with Great Pyrenese, Daschunds...
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby STait » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:34 am

AverageGuy wrote:It might STait, but varies is my experience. I have had some wicked smart dogs that were more independent than biddable. They made excellent dogs. Maybe my best ones in the field, but the process to get them there and keep them there was more taxing than the Biddable ones. I will put up with it if the dog is talented enough, but as I age I appreciate the Biddable more than when I was younger.


I have as well AG, and they were very intelligent. By the way, I use the ones closer to the edge for breeding because I think it’s important to keep the extreme blood moving forward.
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