Bidable dogs?

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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby BrianG » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:02 pm

First post here, have lurked for a while now and enjoy this place. Great subjects and insights.
Just a little background before my input. I have owned and trained gun dogs and trial dogs for 50 years (ouch), they have covered all types and breeds, one of the things I always hope for no matter the breed or purpose is to find that pup that just seems to thrive on the learning process ( I guess teachers feel the same way and after all that is what we do).
I have been very fortunate to have a few of these over time, they were the ones that sometimes made you think you just might be a trainer after all. Of course the next one out of kennel makes you shake your head and wonder.
My definition then would be a dog that excels at learning is going to be the bidable dog, doesn't have to be soft or hard headed (but could be a bit of both at times) just has to like the training process, love game and it never hurts if it likes you some too.
Good hunting
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:03 pm

"Similarly with Hicntry's terriers...He seems (and I could be way off) to want a combination of a hound and a Draht/DK...biddable to do what he wants, driven enough to get out there, game to engage bears or boars. From what I've seen of Tucco on this site, it seems like you have him extremely well trained, socialized etc...he may not be a dog for a shrinking violet but that isn't to say he's not biddable. "

"Biddable to do what I want???"

Jonov, my dogs are so far from being biddable it isn't funny. There is very little training involved in my dogs. They are extremely dominant because of the breeding. What my dogs do is instinctive on what really dominate dog do....they control their environment and they tend to control everything in it. Why does Tucco appear to be trained? Because I let him win his fair share of the time. It is handling to get the most out of him rather than training.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby ForestDump » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:00 am

JONOV wrote:
I think, as has been alluded to, that bid-ability and train-ability might be two different things. And, that there are different traits that are sometimes, but not always, related to bid-ability and trainability. Energy level, dominance, prey drive, and intelligence all probably affect it and can be confused for it.

Field trial line labs can be really high octane dogs. They can take a lot of pressure. But the way they relate and work in close conjunction with their handlers is extremely impressive to me. I would call them biddable. But, if you don't work the dog to take off some of the edge, you'll never see that. Compare that to a Chesapeake, bred to guard the decoys and boat, retrieve independently in the worst conditions, and not bred selectively over the years for its ability to quickly take instruction. The Chessie is probably less "bidable," but not so much as to be hard to train.

You hear about people wanting Border Collies...highly intelligent, energetic, work in close proximity with a shepherd in theory, but not a good suburban house dog if you can't really direct that energy. And they aren't dogs known to be particularly dominant.

Or a Malinois/Dutch Shepherd that was bred to bite. They clicker train them just like they teach you at a Petsmart puppy class. But if you don't challenge them, and work their energy out, you're going to have problems. Not a dog for a novice or even a journeyman, but I would imagine that anyone with a moderately firm personality, a willingness to walk and run the dog, could train the dogs to do a bunch of things no problem. That might not make it a good idea to own one as a pet, but still...

Think about someone breeding pointers for AA Field Trials...he probably doesn't care if the dog isn't biddable to sit, stay, roll over, fetch...But the dog better stay in front of the horse, relate to the handler, etc...A dog that doesn't stay in front, that runs to the corner of the earth without regard to the handler? Probably not much good...Since they seem to breed bunches of dogs looking for the one, I can't imagine those dogs make it and are likely washed out in a hurry. A dog that's a 50-50 proposition to show in time at the end of judgement? Not much use I would guess no matter what kind of race he runs. Also, if the handler can make it do what he wants 800 yards away, don't you think he can keep it and make it do what he wants 100 yards away if he went Grouse hunting in the big woods?

Similarly with Hicntry's terriers...He seems (and I could be way off) to want a combination of a hound and a Draht/DK...biddable to do what he wants, driven enough to get out there, game to engage bears or boars. From what I've seen of Tucco on this site, it seems like you have him extremely well trained, socialized etc...he may not be a dog for a shrinking violet but that isn't to say he's not biddable.

My dog is extremely biddable most of the time. He's also docile. But he can certainly work independently of me and has a high prey drive, and is game enough that as a puppy small enough for me to carry he ran down and dispatched a wounded goose. He's what I would mostly call "soft," he doesn't require much pressure to do what you want him to. But, he will challenge me...He knows that if I try and give a command while I'm on my phone or walking our other dog, I have a limited means of enforcing it. I had to pick up our 40 lb foster dog in my arms this week to run him down for being a turd and not listening.

When I think about dogs that are not bidable I think of dogs that aren't going to take much to training at all, no matter who trains them. Deer hunters around here run hounds on deer...Best case scenario, they can get the dogs back in the truck box at the end of the day because they collar broke them. Cool dogs, but not biddable. They aren't bred with any inclination or expectation that they work with you...just that they scent, run deer with good endurance and make a lot of noise doing it. That's it. Whether you get a docile submissive one or a bold dominant one, you aren't going to make much headway training it. Same with Great Pyrenese, Daschunds...


I am very confused, what is you definition of “biddable”?
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:35 am

Easy to work with. Eager to please and willing to do it your way. I don't see where the confusion is. GH and others have given clear definitions. Because Jonov assumes my dogs look well trained in pictures means nothing because I am not a trainer no do I have the perfection mindset of a trainer. Tucco is a great dog in his own right, BUT, trainers would hate him because what he does do, he does it his way......and looks you in they eye while he does it. It is a dogs way of challenging your authority. I find I get more willing co-operation out of this type of dog by letting him win up to a point. This doesn't make him biddable and trainers can't accept dogs that do it their way....even though they will get the job done and get it done well. In the long run, biddable is still biddable.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:35 am

...
Last edited by hicntry on Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:20 pm

What a great thread. Thanks Willie.
I guess after thinking about it that I want a dog that is first, my very best pal, and second a capable hunting dog that enjoys time afield but knows I don't care if I get a shot or a full bag. To hell with big-running dogs, field trial champs and e-collars. To each his own. This is not a game or a competition for me and the very last thing my dog will be is a tool that puts meat on my table. I know I am an outlier on this particular forum. I am just getting old and tired. The fire in my belly is a glowing ember, not that it can't be fanned to flame, but an ember nonetheless and that's just fine with me. With my dodgy back, I never know how far I can walk any more. If I can manage a two-mile hunt and see a few birds, awesome. Drop a couple with the 28 -- red letter day. A dog that is thrilled to get out and get a few nose-fulls of bird, stays within sight and checks back often gets to sleep on my bed -- with an extra tummy scratch. Oh sure, the young guys here will say get a walker, Pops, and Clumber spaniel, or just hang it up. Not there yet.
Biddable dogs. YES!

8)
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:54 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:What a great thread. Thanks Willie.
I guess after thinking about it that I want a dog that is first, my very best pal, and second a capable hunting dog that enjoys time afield but knows I don't care if I get a shot or a full bag. To hell with big-running dogs, field trial champs and e-collars. To each his own. This is not a game or a competition for me and the very last thing my dog will be is a tool that puts meat on my table. I know I am an outlier on this particular forum. I am just getting old and tired. The fire in my belly is a glowing ember, not that it can't be fanned to flame, but an ember nonetheless and that's just fine with me. With my dodgy back, I never know how far I can walk any more. If I can manage a two-mile hunt and see a few birds, awesome. Drop a couple with the 28 -- red letter day. A dog that is thrilled to get out and get a few nose-fulls of bird, stays within sight and checks back often gets to sleep on my bed -- with an extra tummy scratch. Oh sure, the young guys here will say get a walker, Pops, and Clumber spaniel, or just hang it up. Not there yet.
Biddable dogs. YES!

8)


Not an outlier... I believe that we've matured into true hunters, not gamers, politicians or breed blinded.

The Germans call it a Waidman... a hunter for whom it's not just the hunt BUT the execution of the hunt that counts.

I hunt every available moment not because I have to but because I feel I owe it to my pup to get out. And, after that she's a house dog and pub partner... not a "tool". I'm just fortunate that she's just the right speed... and, I have a GPS.

Life is too short for us all...


You take care,

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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:08 pm

I think the notion of "Big running Dogs" gets a bad rap.

The good ones are running big because they have already run close and did not find/smell any birds. So they expand because they are compelled to find birds. As long as they stop i.e. point when they smell birds and hold their point - it is a wonderful thing to behold. I hunted with some EPs last year that were constantly on point mostly within a 100 yards of us. Not because they would not expand their search but rather they were finding and pointing birds as they ran/hunted. Had they not found birds within 100 yards they would have gone out further until they did.

I do not know how biddable those dogs were. They were so well trained that I would not be able to separate training from natural inclination, having not seen them when they were puppies. I do know they were EXTREMELY effective, stylish and fun to hunt with.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby JTracyII » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:13 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:What a great thread. Thanks Willie.
I guess after thinking about it that I want a dog that is first, my very best pal, and second a capable hunting dog that enjoys time afield but knows I don't care if I get a shot or a full bag. To hell with big-running dogs, field trial champs and e-collars. To each his own. This is not a game or a competition for me and the very last thing my dog will be is a tool that puts meat on my table. I know I am an outlier on this particular forum. I am just getting old and tired. The fire in my belly is a glowing ember, not that it can't be fanned to flame, but an ember nonetheless and that's just fine with me. With my dodgy back, I never know how far I can walk any more. If I can manage a two-mile hunt and see a few birds, awesome. Drop a couple with the 28 -- red letter day. A dog that is thrilled to get out and get a few nose-fulls of bird, stays within sight and checks back often gets to sleep on my bed -- with an extra tummy scratch. Oh sure, the young guys here will say get a walker, Pops, and Clumber spaniel, or just hang it up. Not there yet.
Biddable dogs. YES!

8)


I appreciate your perspective. Thanks for sharing. Don’t know how old you are, but my grandpa is 84. He doesn’t go as much as he used too, but he still goes deer hunting a couple times per year when the weather is not so cold it penetrates his bones. My dad, brother, grandpa and I draw in as a group each year to hunt deer at a local WMA. Despite his serious health issues lately my grandma said he was already getting out his clothes preparing to go. He can’t walk far now, but the ember is still there. This time of year, with the cooler weather and changing leaves, it gets fanned a bit; much like for those of us who are younger. I’m hoping to take him on probably his last quail hunt this year by putting him on my dad’s Polaris. It saddens me to see his ember still burning but his body keeping him from something he has had such a passion for throughout his life. I can tell it bothers him too, but he does not say so. Too stoic for that. Guess it will happen to us all if we live long enough. Don’t forget to be thankful for each step out there in the field this season. Each outing, each step is a blessing.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:52 am

J: I'll be 65 in March -- not that old, just haven't healed from a lumbar laminectomy last April. Legs still go so numb I feel like I am about to tip over and can't even feel my feet touching the ground. Needless to say this was not on my radar.
My dad hunted into his 80s as well. He was happy just to walk 100 yards from the road and sit on a rock with his rifle and binoculars. Those old WWII vets were tough.
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