Bidable dogs?

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Bidable dogs?

Postby Willie T » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:27 pm

So what does bidability mean to you?

I'll go first. To me it is a high level of cooperation that some lines have bred into for generations. It is a dog that gets out front and stays out front while hunting and instinctively maintains contact with the handler. If I turn 90 degrees in a new direction, the dog is back in front of me in short order. No prompting or correction. It allows the hunter to operate in silence. It is not a boldness vs submissive issue. There are both bold and submissive dogs that are biddable. Nor is it an obedience issue. It is a dog that picks up what you are teaching it with minimal or no correction and then retains it at a high level and does not require frequent corrections to get high level compliance without frequent correction. I think the e-collar, while a great training tool, has facilitated the production of many substandard hunting dogs that can perform at a high level but also require a lot of correction and concentration to maintain at a high level.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:36 pm

Just another word for cooperation with a bit of temperament thrown in. A bidable dog is one you can live with 24/7.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:27 pm

They enjoy leaving the bossing to the handler because they are not great lead dogs. Generally softer natured than dominate dogs making it easier for the average dog owner to work with.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Willie T » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:08 pm

hicntry wrote:They enjoy leaving the bossing to the handler because they are not great lead dogs. Generally softer natured than dominate dogs making it easier for the average dog owner to work with.


Definitely not the case in my experience. Dominance and bidability are two seperate things.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Willie T wrote:
hicntry wrote:They enjoy leaving the bossing to the handler because they are not great lead dogs. Generally softer natured than dominate dogs making it easier for the average dog owner to work with.


Definitely not the case in my experience. Dominance and bidability are two seperate things.


They are two separate things, but, one definitely affects the other.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:05 pm

Willie T wrote:So what does bidability mean to you?

I'll go first. To me it is a high level of cooperation that some lines have bred into for generations. It is a dog that gets out front and stays out front while hunting and instinctively maintains contact with the handler. If I turn 90 degrees in a new direction, the dog is back in front of me in short order. No prompting or correction. It allows the hunter to operate in silence. It is not a boldness vs submissive issue. There are both bold and submissive dogs that are biddable. Nor is it an obedience issue. It is a dog that picks up what you are teaching it with minimal or no correction and then retains it at a high level and does not require frequent corrections to get high level compliance without frequent correction. I think the e-collar, while a great training tool, has facilitated the production of many substandard hunting dogs that can perform at a high level but also require a lot of correction and concentration to maintain at a high level.
Willie


Quite simply, a biddable dog works with you and not against you. Period. They TRY to please you.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby mahlon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:27 am

When I started hunting in the early sixties, bidablity/cooperation was the the most important thing we looked for in a dog. For the average trainer, a dog that was big running and independent was worse than useless. There was no way to correct them before the ecollar. We hunted small fields and heavy cover'. The best dog was also one that would hit a pheasant track and slowly relocate until the bird stopped. The uncooperative dog would chase the bird and the hunter had to run to keep up usually getting there too late. At that time most Vdog breeds were highly cooperative and close working.

Since then, I think the Vdog's have become less coperative and bigger running. Dogs are not really bred for the hunters and conditions of the sixties in Eastern Pa. anymore. The market is more for trial dogs, twenty minute chukar games and western hunting in wide open spaces. The other big development is dog testing. I am not an expert on testing or standards but suspect that he speed and independence are more valued than co-operation

The ecollar can be used to make the modern dog hunt more like the old fashioned dog but it takes a lot of correction and and a dog and hunter that are unhappy with the process. I have done it successfully but still need to hunt by using the button with my older dog. Many trainers will tell you any dog can be trained to hunt like the dog I want but I prefer the dog that does it naturally without a lot of expert level training.

When I set out to buy my last Vdog, I but a lot of effort into find a naturally old fashioned dog. I called a lot of breeders with little success. One told me that if you find a breeder that breeds that type of dog he would never admit it. I finally got a tip on a breeder that was breeding a litter to a dog that had very high coop pointing and tracking dogs but was poor on search. I asked the breeder what was wrong with the search and he said his dog hunts slow and close and is a slow tracker. I now have the best dog I have ever owned. We hunt all day without the ecollar. The dog is always hunting for and with me and we are killing alot of birds.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Urban_Redneck » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:33 am

On the nature side, many folks strive to buy pups out of Ch. studs and dams to ensure a dog with instinct and drive. Of course in the field trial game, big running dogs win most often. Well bred dogs that naturally work closer are available, I think on the continent, dogs generally run big side to side (windshield wiper) search rather than the objective oriented American trial dogs

On the nurture side, in my one dog opinion 8) time spent with a young pup on regular forays into the fields and woods can teach a pup that "dad" knows where all the good stuff is and they naturally begin to look back to see where he's headed and to take direction. I believe many field trial handlers do the same only the dogs key in on the horse as at 300y the handler might not be visible.

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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:52 am

I think a dog varying the range and direction of its search according to the birds and cover being hunted, and the direction of the handler, go with the label of Biddable. A dog can be very Biddable while also opening up its range in open country. Constantly close working dogs in all terrain are not so much Biddable as they are ineffective is my view.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby STait » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:13 am

I hunt with, and raise pointers. To me the word biddability means that the dog wants to go with you naturally. It's genetic in my dogs. I was amazed when I first took my 8 week old male pup Copper to the field for the first time and he naturally ran to be in front of me, but also turned every direction I turned to stay in front of me, purely genetic! Last night while hunting chukars he (now 2 1/2 years old) was not being very "biddable" at all when he kept running below a ridge on the far side of the hill. I was getting angry as he went past 400 yards. It wasn't until I crossed over the ridge to try and see him that I realized he was working the wind coming up from the bottom. I kicked myself in the head and let him roll. He's very biddable, but also very independent with only birds on his mind. Exactly what I want.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby JONOV » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:37 pm

hicntry wrote:They enjoy leaving the bossing to the handler because they are not great lead dogs. Generally softer natured than dominate dogs making it easier for the average dog owner to work with.

I don't know...Think about a GSD or a Malinois. THey have to be biddable. Now, a working line Schutzhund type dog can't be particularly soft and if he's not biddable, you're going to end up with problems, not to mention that I can't imagine they would waste time with dogs that didn't particularly care to work with a handler.

Or, think about dogs that need to work extremely independently. My brother has a Great Pyrenees that I wouldn't call dominant and I wouldn't call hard. but, he's the least biddable dog I've ever met. A lot of that's the breed; they're bred to be protecting a herd in the absence of the Shepherds.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:34 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I think a dog varying the range and direction of its search according to the birds and cover being hunted, and the direction of the handler, go with the label of Biddable. A dog can be very Biddable while also opening up its range in open country. Constantly close working dogs in all terrain are not so much Biddable as they are ineffective is my view.


This is referred to in the JGHV as cooperation.

This plus a dog that shows pleasure in obeying is biddable.

You need balance... and a lot of dogs with high desire?
/drive lack the balance.

My dog searches BIG and checks in/back regularly.

She steals off the counter and brings whatever IMMEDIATELY upstairs to me.


Biddable...

... makes life pleasurable...

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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby Willie T » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:06 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I think a dog varying the range and direction of its search according to the birds and cover being hunted, and the direction of the handler, go with the label of Biddable. A dog can be very Biddable while also opening up its range in open country. Constantly close working dogs in all terrain are not so much Biddable as they are ineffective is my view.


Same here. The best quail country here in Texas is big country. Some brushy and some wide open. To cover the open ground a dog needs to open their range. Hunting the brushy draws that a lot of the birds take refuge in requires the dog to close up to maintain contact. You can get one that does not want to close it up to hunt that way, but the hacking that goes with it is not a good time for me. With extensive hunting, interaction between the biddable dog and handler become intuitive and they almost work as one. To me that is something most any bird hunter recognizes when they see, and a quality in a dog and handler I admire. Back when I started hunting behind pointing dogs we did not use ecollars and I think a higher premium was put on bidability. When dog men talked dogs, it was a big part of the discussion. It is a topic I don't hear discussed much anymore.....
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:52 pm

JONOV wrote:
hicntry wrote:They enjoy leaving the bossing to the handler because they are not great lead dogs. Generally softer natured than dominate dogs making it easier for the average dog owner to work with.

I don't know...Think about a GSD or a Malinois. THey have to be biddable. Now, a working line Schutzhund type dog can't be particularly soft and if he's not biddable, you're going to end up with problems, not to mention that I can't imagine they would waste time with dogs that didn't particularly care to work with a handler.

Or, think about dogs that need to work extremely independently. My brother has a Great Pyrenees that I wouldn't call dominant and I wouldn't call hard. but, he's the least biddable dog I've ever met. A lot of that's the breed; they're bred to be protecting a herd in the absence of the Shepherds.


Malinois are not biddable dogs. They are totally unbalanced and bred to bite. GSD's have been largely bred to crap. In training, most GSD's are always allowed to win because if they get to much pressure they quit. Today, most do not understand what balance is. FT dogs are and example of that imbalance. My dogs were bred for a definite imbalance of dominance. I knew what I was doing when I bred them. Were they "biddable??? Hell no!! They always challenged me. Tucco is one of the most dominate dogs I ever bred and we are constantly butting heads, because he wants to be the boss. I am crazy about him because of his independence. He challenges me and I understand him and I learned to work with dogs of this nature and they are normally exceptional dogs if you know how to work with them. Biddable dogs that go out of their way to please me I got no use for because they have to be handled with kid gloves.
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Re: Bidable dogs?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Not me HC. I've butted heads with enough dominant a-holes in my lifetime; no more. I love the high drive, biddable dog's that want to work to please ME, not them. A loooong time ago a bunch of us were talking after a tough day of training where one guy had a man eater we eventually made into an AFC. The dog had just bitten him and I commented that this is supposed to be ENJOYABLE so why the hell would anyone want to butt heads with a dominant dog day in and day out. That is NOT enjoyable. Biddable ones for me hands down and all day long.
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