GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

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GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Carino » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 am

HI all.. we are from Massachusetts and we're wondering if anyone out here knows of a good breeder within these areas MA, NH, ME, CT.

We are looking for a dog bred for the average foot hunter to hunt pheasants, grouse and Chuckars. We are not interesred in a field trial dog or dogs, which come from field trial bloodlines. We believe that there harder to train and are a longer range running dog.

We have been researching DK''s and have come to like the ideology of breeding the dogs for the average foot hunter. However, on some DK websites I have found that they enter the dogs in field trials.. I'm confused thought that the DK breeders don't want to mix there bloodlines with GSP field trial dogs.

I believe back in the 80s and 90s many Gsp breeders began breeding there dogs for field trials and breeding a faster longer ranging dog. These dogs were over bred and many people belive that it has taken away from the close working dogs that the GPS where bred for.

I've only been reading information on the web. Does anyone know if a DK is truly more of the authentic GSP bred in Germany?

Does anyone know or has dekt with the folowing kennels On point kennels David Trahan in Deerfield nh and Robert Corsaro of Vom nobell
Haus kennels new jersey?
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby ryanr » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:01 pm

I don't personally have a dog from either kennel (I run GWPs) but I'm very much involved in NAVHDA and have seen and/ or worked with dogs from both kennels and IMO you can't go wrong with a dog from either kennel. I am friends with and often train with a NAVHDA judge who has Versatile Champion GSPs and he too has said the same thing about the dogs he's seen from those kennels. FYI, Dave Trahan is currently the president of NAVHDA International and he and his dogs also guide for grouse & woodcock out of Lopstick Lodge in Pittsburg, NH.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby greg jacobs » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:48 pm

There is a lot of different ranges of both dk's and gsp's

The dk's are quite a bit different on one side of the Rhine river to the other. One side leans a little more towards fur on the other side more towards upland. Although these lines are a little gray with the ease of moving dogs from one country to another Everything from 90 lb close working ground pounders to lighter weight more active dogs with more erect tails.

The gsp's have a huge range difference. Everything from grouse lines, navhda, nstra, FT walking to FT horse back.

A lot of the grouse and navhda lines have some dk mixed in.

There is a lot of variation in both

I see Nobelle dogs on pedigrees occasionally on the versatile lines. That's a good sign
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby RowdyGSP » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:44 pm

Just because you get a DK, does not mean you will get a closer working dog. Tygh, my DK that I had, was from 100% DK lines. Parents were only tested in the German system. Tygh would hunt up to 800 yards away, in more open country. That was fine with me, but it's not for everyone. So what I am trying to say is that even it's not a guarantee that you will get a close worker with a DK. If close-working is one of your biggest priorities, I might suggest a WPG or a PP... or at least maybe watch both parents hunt from the DK breeder you choose and decide if you like how they work. Just my two cents.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby ryanr » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:12 pm

I think, for the most part, if you want a close working dog then train it that way from an early age. Most good dogs will adjust their range according to habitat and their owner.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Skyfall » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:36 am

My first post on this site. I wouldn't limit my search due to geography. As said in previous post, there are differences in not only navda, AKC, etc lines of Shorthairs, but DK lines as well. I have 2 DKs both super dogs, but here is food for thought. Both dogs have the same sire, but different dames. So half brother and sister. The female will absolutly tear a field up, was harder to FF, and is just more headstrong than the male. The male is the most laid back dog you will ever see. He completed his derby at 5 1/2 months old (all 4s) and is just a really compliant dog. When you talk to DK breeders tell them what your looking for. In my experience a good breeder will match you with a dog or even refer you to another breeder.
Good luck with your search.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby JONOV » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:40 pm

ryanr wrote:I think, for the most part, if you want a close working dog then train it that way from an early age. Most good dogs will adjust their range according to habitat and their owner.

I agree with you.

OP, buy a GSP from a kennel in the northeast that does a lot of Grouse and Woodcock hunting.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Highlander » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:02 pm

DK's come with many different types. A lot depends how and what kinda hunting the breeder prefers.
There Dks that run 10 meters each side and there DKs that run 200 meters each side.

There is a group of people in Europe who love old type DK: heavy built, tall and strong dogs with very slow but thorough style of hunting. Kinda DD style dogs.
and of course there other guys who like much lighter built, faster with keen nose and very stylish manner of hunting. I am this kinda guy.
not sure if this apply to the US

If happens that an american breeder imported a pup form Germany form either group of people, the pup will cray the similar genes if not the same.

So my suggestion is to research what kind of hunting the breeder is into and make the judgment upon that data. Ask about the parents and ancestors of the pup and the way they hunted.
I think you need to email the DK club of the US and ask the question.

Also keep in mind two things:
1) Many DKs (and other German breeds) have sort of adjusting way of hunting/ searching, meaning that if a DK came across an open prairie he will try to cover a wast area as he instinctively knows that this he increases a chance of run into a bird scent. And if he comes across with a dens bushy place he will adjust the search accordingly. This behavior has been observed in many occasions among European or Russian hunters.

2) You can teach your dog not to go too far. and is much easier to have a dog search closer than have a dog search far away from you. You can make a dog come close but you cant make your dog go far.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Deuce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:51 am

The two you listed are great options for what you're looking for. I'd also add Merrymeeting Kennels in Maine to your list. They have two different lines, DK, and GSP.
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Carino » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:38 am

Thank you all for the great responses. My dad and I have had six GSP for over the past 40 years... Great dogs and a great breed we fell in love with. Early on our pups came
from word of mouth local hunters. They were great bird dogs close working. Unfortunately as they got older many of them stopped having litters. We then found a kennel in western ma and ended up purchasing a solid liver GSP. Great bird dog close ranging birdy, unfortunately he succumbed to seizers and we are now a bit worried about hereditary issues from this breeder. We then purchased a pup from a breeder in CT. The sire was no other than Rawhides Clown... Great Nose on this dog but let me tell you from the time we left home until the time we left out hunt this dog was super hyper... also long ranging dog hard to handle and train.
Then I started reading up on The DK breed and how they are bred to old school methods to preserve the original traits the dogs had and also for the average foot hunter.
I have found a total of 4 breeders that I am interested in. 2 of them are DK Breeders Onpoint Kennels of NH and Merrymeeting Kennels out of Maine. David Trahan is up guiding right now, he told me to visit when he gets back so I am excited to see his dogs. He is a DK breeder but he also uses and trains his dogs for field trial. He is also the President of NAVHDA.
The other 2 are Cady Falls GSP of CT and Autumn kennels GSP out of Maine..Allen Smith of Autumn Kennels is a great guy… answers all my questions in depth. After researching his bloodlines he started out with German Imports and then he decided to start mating with the American field trial dogs, which he claims brought a stronger nose and point.
I am going to have to make a hard decision to which I go with. I’m Sure that all these kennels are top notch kennels and breed true to the breed well for confirmation and hunting. They all are registered and all compete in NAVHDA testing.
Thank You
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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby nobellekennelz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:15 pm

Carino:

First and foremost I know both Blane and Patti Carter and would not hesitate to purchase a pup out of any litter of theirs. They are both salt of the earth individuals that I am confident will produce the type of pup you are seeking. I do not think with the two breeders you mentioned,(On Point or Merrymeeting) you can go wrong.

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Re: GSP or DK for my next puppy.. breeders

Postby Carino » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:26 pm

Not to change the subject what about a VV? Any Maine differences betwwen VV and VK
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