Redemption LMAO

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby ryanr » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:55 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Kiger, I totally get what your saying, BUT absolutely NONE of it applies to this test or testing system.

The judges put the duck out, they know where the duck went, but the dog and handler DO NOT. You cannot handle a dog to a duck younever saw. The dog is judged on all the things Ryan said, as well as its ability to acknowledge and track scent across open water.


You guys might want to review your VZPOs... to paraphrase:

...duck is released in a point approx. 1 gunshot away from the release point... handler is usually given the approx. location of the "fall" to direct his dog.

Additional direction is allowed... although too much direction can lower the score.

3ds


Sorry, I was basically speaking from a NAVHDA duck search perspective but I thought the JGHV search behind duck I believe it's called was very similar in scope. In NAVHDA, neither handler or dog knows where the duck is released nor is the handler given any type of direction of where it might be. The dog is simply sent, on a gunshot from the handler, and any further commands WILL lower your score. As I understand it, the objective isn't really about finding a duck, it's a means to test the dog's willingness to work independently, in difficult cover, away from the handler without needing further commands. The NAVHDA UT duck search is probably my favorite part of NAVHDA testing to watch (along with the NA pheasant track) because it's a good glimpse into what a dog's made of. I love watching a really good versatile hunting dog tear up a duck search "pond", going thru and over everything from nasty snags and beaver dams and lodges to thick reeds- utterly driven to find a duck.
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:28 am

Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:07 am

One of the best post's on here Willie.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:19 am

My posts above give the Labs their due and sound more similar than dissimilar to GH and WillieT. I have been around Labs for decades in all settings, training, retriever games, hunting both upland and waterfowl. There is huge difference between the AVERAGE Lab in the US and those winning the FTs. I think a person would need to look at Vdogs such as HDC's and Deacon's PPs and 24/7's DDs which get hundreds of waterfowl retrieves annually to get a valid comparison to their capabilities vs a Waterfowl Guides' Labs. No axe to grind. I am like GH and WillieT in why I am hunting with the breed I am. I like the search and pointing of my GWPs vs a closer range flushing dog for upland hunting and get what I need for Waterfowl out of my Vdogs.

Kiger2 wrote:Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.


I am going to post a few photos of the Public areas I have hunted for decades.

Steadiness, Marking, Search and Drive far exceed any need for long range handling where I and thousands of others hunt waterfowl. A dog needs to be able to handle sufficiently to go in the direction sent when it has no mark but once it enters the cover the recovery of the downed bird is all on the dog. Which makes the skills developed for Duck Search extremely applicable. Posting for the benefit of other hunters who might be following along with no expectation of "winning" the discussion here, I just have difficulty not responding to wrong when I read it. No handler can handle a dog they cannot see.

This is Spud's first teal hunt in a tall rank Smartweed Marsh. The pool is very small and ducks fall into the Smartweed far more often than in the pool. I am 6'1" - note the height and thickness of the Smartweed. Handling a dog once it enters is impossible. Either by mark or taking Handler direction into the right direction at the start of the retrieve is critical but that is rudimentary vs the Retriever dog games. Once the dog is in the Smartweed it will need to work independently with alot of drive to struggle through the cover searching to recover the downed birds. I gave Spud alot of work on that for that reason.
Image

This is my prior dog Jack on a great Mallard hunt in subfreezing temps with late season wary public area Mallards in Dec. My Brother and I scratched out our 2 man limit and every duck was a duck search in the standing flooded corn. Again line of sight handling is impossible. Search is critical.
Image

This is Spud on yesterday's hunt. The water is 3-4 feet deep and cover is another 3 feet above the water. It was not until he was less than 10 yards from me when I took this poor quality photo of him bringing in another duck recovered due to marking and searching skills. Again no line of sight handling is possible and Search is critical.
Image

This is from Jan 2017 on Spud's first late season brutal weather hunt on a river. GH's comments about the value of being able to send a dog to a cripple vs a dead bird in the decoys rings very much true on the River. And some handling out to 100 yards can come into play on a very small volume of retrieves. But the point this photo makes is again nothing remotely approximating the long range handling of a dog in the Retriever games is possible here either. But with ice flows coming down the river a dog had better have alot of drive to succeed here.
Image
Last edited by AverageGuy on Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1426
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:07 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.


Maybe in situations where handler actually sees whats going on. But, in my area you are lucky to mark a fall in f looded timber. Most cripples dont just wait. And, the dog/nose are more efficient.
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:51 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.

3drahthaars wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.


Maybe in situations where handler actually sees whats going on. But, in my area you are lucky to mark a fall in f looded timber. Most cripples dont just wait. And, the dog/nose are more efficient.

I think if you hunt enough with your dogs, it makes little difference whether you train it up to test in NAVHDA, JGHV, HRC, etc...Labs aren't stupid (most of them anyway) and will learn to find ducks in a hurry. If you self train and never test your dog, and hunt it enough, you'll probably do well enough anyway. I think some of the generalized disdain towards labs comes not from the dogs themselves, but from

Even a dedicated hunter that hunts every chance he gets and who has a normal 9-5 schedule with normal family commitments, probably wouldn't notice a statistically significant difference in the amount of ducks retrieved (or lost) between a lab and a versatile.

A hunting guide? He might.

It kind of changes the subject a little bit but you can tell when you start to train for the UT test which dogs hunt and which dogs don't. One thing I think is bad for breeds (and dog buyers) in any system is people that don't hunt with their dogs and sell them exclusively off of test scores. I see people that do it in NAVHDA; you can often tell because the dogs, while often very well trained and with some good natural instinct, don't totally put some of the tasks together, or act surprised or even scared the first time a quail is actually killed over them despite not being gun-shy in the NA test. I mean, why bother coming out if you're dog is to the point where your moving on to a stake that if passed, indicates a finished hunting dog in about every sense of the word, and you haven't taken it hunting.

You see it in retriever games as well...dogs that couldn't handle a boat ride to the blind, sit quietly for any length of time, etc...All they know is being yanked out of the box and walked to the line. The owner, if he does hunt ducks, its rare and with a guide and he has never gotten his hands cold picking up decoys, he may or may not have a relationship with the dog, they may take it home for Christmas and Thanksgiving but it otherwise lives with the trainer; the big deal to them is owning the championship lab, status or something.

I was looking at a DD breeder's website that produced four litters this year and talked about why they didn't do a fifth. I don't know them and maybe they have a unique situation, but unless your fortunate enough to be in a situation like Bob Whele (brewery fortune heir) or whatever, I question how much they can hunt with these dogs, and how well they can know them in general terms; at that level I have to wonder if it isn't about the money (they grossed $52,000 selling puppies in 2017 if you multiply their 2017 litters by their minimum puppy fee advertised.) I can't imagine they're breeding towards a specific purpose like Hicntry or Stait since the JGHV judges against a standard (as opposed to a competition,) and I wonder how many of their litters they keep a pup from.

I think its unfortunate when the means of evaluating a breeding (or dog) becomes the end goal in and of itself.

And that is why this conversation has devolved into people arguing about the merits of the test system. I think.
JONOV
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:30 pm

You aren't the only one looking at said kennel cross-eyed... but there are more of those in the hunt test world Im sure.

A lab breeder near me guides, but has 14 bitches and 2 studs. You can't tell me all 14 of those dogs are getting hunted every week. I have a day job and mine get hunted more.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby ryanr » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:36 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Let me try to explain one more time. I don't need any mores descriptions of "SEARCH" , i understand it and i have for years. My point is that it is a skill that has little practical value in hunting. Being able to handle brings far more to the table.


Got it, you only want to pontificate.

I already recognize handling's value in hunting, I'm sure many others here do too. She was testing and for the most part handling in that element of the test lowers your score. We explained the reason for and objective of that part of the test.
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Previous

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 12 guests