Redemption LMAO

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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:45 pm

If it doesn't surface within sight, your dog better have the ability to find the duck.

I see a lot of discussion on duck hunting forums about ducks that dive and suicide. Ducks don't suicide, dogs that can't search fail to find them.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:51 pm

Also, I suspect most of our V-dogs would have found the missing crippled duck the FT labs lost - because ourdogs go to the fall and track the duck as far as required. Not small circles because they've been trained all ducks are dead, but follow their nose 2,3, 400 yds down the track until they catch up to the duck. Our dogs are trained that all ducks are potentially crippled and to keep working until they find it. No re-runs. Keep searching.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:12 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:If it doesn't surface within sight, your dog better have the ability to find the duck.

I see a lot of discussion on duck hunting forums about ducks that dive and suicide. Ducks don't suicide, dogs that can't search fail to find them.


I won't say they "Suicide" but I will say they die underwater and don't resurface. Or, somehow literally manage to swim away under water far enough from sight on a clear day.

I've seen it enough and seen enough dogs out searching for 20+ minutes in broader circles with no results. If you hunt open water you'll see it. It isn't like a swamp where there's enough cover and weeds and maybe not that deep to begin with.

Geese? No, they go down and don't dive.

Mallards? Rarely if ever have I seen one go down never to resurface. Same with teal, Gadwall, woodies...

Scaup, Redheads, Buffleheads, etc...They all will go down and not come up.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:47 pm

I've seen it with teal. Perfect situation. I was hunting in Wyo. on a river and shot a teal. Dog went after it and never found it. I walked to where the duck hit and looked into the ultra clear spring creek. There was the teal, beak clamped to a weed, drowned in the water. I can't prove it, but I believe the do "suicide".
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:57 pm

AverageGuy wrote:

I have never seen a Retriever excelling at FT that would search anything close to what a Vdog, trained to search, will and I have never seen a Vdog hold a line and accept handling at long ranges anywhere near like what a FT Lab will.



As you allude to later on, they don't search because they are neither trained to search nor allowed to search. A search is detrimental to their training. However, take a retired FT dog and let him search, and he will become the most phenomenal hunting dog on the planet, far exceeding the Vdog as WATERFOWL specialist. There is a reason the predominant dog guides in SD use and the dog's you see in the field are lab's; lab's are phenomenal pheasant machines when trained for it and not inhibited.

And yes, in the uplands the Vdog is likely the better dog but in the water the lab is the absolute king.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:57 pm

AverageGuy wrote:

I have never seen a Retriever excelling at FT that would search anything close to what a Vdog, trained to search, will and I have never seen a Vdog hold a line and accept handling at long ranges anywhere near like what a FT Lab will.



As you allude to later on, they don't search because they are neither trained to search nor allowed to search. A search is detrimental to their training. However, take a retired FT dog and let him search, and he will become the most phenomenal hunting dog on the planet, far exceeding the Vdog as WATERFOWL specialist. There is a reason the predominant dog guides in SD use and the dog's you see in the field are lab's; lab's are phenomenal pheasant machines when trained for it and not inhibited.

And yes, in the uplands the Vdog is likely the better dog but in the water the lab is the absolute king.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:43 pm

I have hunted with some really nice Labs, for Waterfowl, doves, pheasants, quail and grouse.

I tend to think if you take a well bred, developed and trained Vdog and Lab, and shoot 300 or more head of waterfowl a season over each of them the difference in the practical effectiveness between them would get pretty small.

The Lab would be better at long range handling but I believe that is a way overstated issue in bringing waterfowl to hand. But I do not hunt rice fields.

If all I hunted was waterfowl I would get a Lab. If I hunted primarily Waterfowl and little pheasant, I would get a Lab. But I hunt enough upland and enjoy the working style of my GWPs over a Lab so that is why I stick with the GWPs.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:59 pm

Where the lab's really shine AG is for a guide's waterfowl dog. You may have four guys shooting from a blind and have maybe 8 ducks hit the water. It's nice to be able to select the one you want the dog to retrieve or to be able to handle him off one he is headed for to go for a cripple somewhere else. You just can't get a V dog to do that ( very few of them). I've made my peace with that and I no longer guide. I love seeing a dog point so for me as you, it's the DD's all the way. I will never regret all my years with the labs though. They still hold a special place in my heart and soul.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:03 pm

Gonehuntin, For the most part yes.

Misskiwi.

So a dog loses the scent of a bird. Are you suggesting the best solution for the dog is to pick a direction and run in that direction in order to find the bird? Don't you really think that if the dog loses the scent, that the best option for relocating that scent is to do ever increasing circles? And do you really believe that I could possibly train a dog to not track a cripple?????? Im trying to help educate you . You need to stop arguing just to argue because you are just showing your ignorance . The people you are learning from are also ignorant. That is not a slam, it just means they lack education.

Just so you know, Ive seen a lab track a chukar over 600 yards. The dogs are not trained to only find the dead bird. They are trained to thoroughly SEARCH, and I have to repeat SEARCH, the area of the fall because thats the most likely place to find scent. So they get to the area, start their search and then expand the search. We've trained them to trust their eyes so they have a lot of confidence that they should find the bird there. If the birds a runner they track it down. We don't have to train for that.

Now a dog has a natural tendency (your dogs also) to switch if there are multiple birds down. If they get to the area and cant find the bird, they may decide to go back to the place they just got the last bird.

You totally missed the point about the rerun.The point of the story was that "scent" is something we cannot really understand and we have to take that into account when we evaluate performance. See we train our dogs not quit. They see a bird go down they know its there and they will search until they find it or in this case I had to CALL HER BACK. It was a test, I was out, the judge said pick her up. So i did. As i explained, I used the rules to ask for a rerun because I had driven 500 miles to get her title finished. Im quite certain the duck was dead. Im quite certain the previous 3 or 4 ducks were dead. I am also quite certain that there was some reason that I nor you or anyone can really explain why the last dogs failed to find the bird???????

Also if the duck doesn't come up in sight, I HAVE THE ABILITY to direct the dog to search the area THOROUGHLY, Do you?????????????? And as has been confirmed, you are not going to find them all. No matter the search.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby ryanr » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:57 am

Kiger2 wrote:Average guy. I understand what is meant by "Search" . I will lose more birds because a dog cant handle than because it doesn't "Search".
Trials tests are not solely control oriented. The blinds are but the marks are not because if you "control" (handle) your dog on a mark, you are out. Marks test the dogs ability to trust its eyes and handle factors which could cause the dog to mismark the bird. The dog knows how to use its nose, it doesn't always know how to get its nose to where it can be used.

Miss kiwi, Our dogs will also "Search" when the duck dives. Ever increasing circles. Don't train for it, its just natural. But if the duck comes up where the dog cant see it, I don't have to hope that he dog will eventually get to the right spot. I send the dog to where I saw the bird.

And while I also expect that the dog will find every bird, I know it just doesn't happen. Hunt enough , shoot enough birds, you will lose some.

99.9% of the time one will have a pretty good idea where the bird went down. Far more efficient to send the dog than to rely on a "Search" only.


Kiger, the purpose of the duck search (Or search behind duck) in versatile dog testing, as I understand it, is not about finding and recovering a "wounded" duck. Handler and dog have no idea where the duck is or was released to. The purpose of this element of the Utility Test is to measure the versatile hunting dog's ability and desire to work independently to find game away from the handler and without further commands from the handler once the dog is sent. The dog is expected, without fudther command or encouragement, to continually expand its search and to search all likely cover and objectives where a "wounded" duck might be. It must do so for at least 10 minutes. The search time actually ends once the dog has made visual contact with the duck and is chasing (in an extended chase someone will be sent to shoot the duck for the dog.) If the dog gets a duck in its mouth, it must retrieve it to hand. However if after 10 minutes the dog hasn't found a duck but hit all likely objectives and continually expanded its search it can still score just as highly.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:33 pm

ryanr wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Average guy. I understand what is meant by "Search" . I will lose more birds because a dog cant handle than because it doesn't "Search".
Trials tests are not solely control oriented. The blinds are but the marks are not because if you "control" (handle) your dog on a mark, you are out. Marks test the dogs ability to trust its eyes and handle factors which could cause the dog to mismark the bird. The dog knows how to use its nose, it doesn't always know how to get its nose to where it can be used.

Miss kiwi, Our dogs will also "Search" when the duck dives. Ever increasing circles. Don't train for it, its just natural. But if the duck comes up where the dog cant see it, I don't have to hope that he dog will eventually get to the right spot. I send the dog to where I saw the bird.

And while I also expect that the dog will find every bird, I know it just doesn't happen. Hunt enough , shoot enough birds, you will lose some.

99.9% of the time one will have a pretty good idea where the bird went down. Far more efficient to send the dog than to rely on a "Search" only.


Kiger, the purpose of the duck search (Or search behind duck) in versatile dog testing, as I understand it, is not about finding and recovering a "wounded" duck. Handler and dog have no idea where the duck is or was released to. The purpose of this element of the Utility Test is to measure the versatile hunting dog's ability and desire to work independently to find game away from the handler and without further commands from the handler once the dog is sent. The dog is expected, without fudther command or encouragement, to continually expand its search and to search all likely cover and objectives where a "wounded" duck might be. It must do so for at least 10 minutes. The search time actually ends once the dog has made visual contact with the duck and is chasing (in an extended chase someone will be sent to shoot the duck for the dog.) If the dog gets a duck in its mouth, it must retrieve it to hand. However if after 10 minutes the dog hasn't found a duck but hit all likely objectives and continually expanded its search it can still score just as highly.



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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:17 pm

Kiger, I totally get what your saying, BUT absolutely NONE of it applies to this test or testing system.

The judges put the duck out, they know where the duck went, but the dog and handler DO NOT. You cannot handle a dog to a duck younever saw. The dog is judged on all the things Ryan said, as well as its ability to acknowledge and track scent across open water.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Kiger, I totally get what your saying, BUT absolutely NONE of it applies to this test or testing system.

The judges put the duck out, they know where the duck went, but the dog and handler DO NOT. You cannot handle a dog to a duck younever saw. The dog is judged on all the things Ryan said, as well as its ability to acknowledge and track scent across open water.


You guys might want to review your VZPOs... to paraphrase:

...duck is released in a point approx. 1 gunshot away from the release point... handler is usually given the approx. location of the "fall" to direct his dog.

Additional direction is allowed... although too much direction can lower the score.

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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:29 pm

You are told where it went, not where it is. In 5 years of watching tests have only seen one dog handled at HZP level. That was only because the dog kept seeing a stump that was 6 inches out of the water and handler needed to get him to scent to get him to stop checking the stump.

Judges must really be able to shoot a long ways. Regularly see ducks dropped by boat 75 yds from shore.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Willie T » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:46 pm

You guys are arguing apples and oranges. GH's comments are spot on. I've hunted lots of dogs. Had some good ones. Pointing dogs and labs. Switched to the versatiles because I really like the overall package they bring to the table. Particularly their prowess in the uplands. Like many here, a versatile is the best fit for the hunting I do. These dogs impress me. BUT, for a pure waterfowl retriever, a well bred, well trained and experienced Lab Is the top dog. As I read the posts in this thread it occurs to me that most who are down talking the AKC field trial retrievers have never attended, or ran a dog in one. What is done with the versatiles at a test in regard to retrieving is relatively simple stuff that the field trial retriever could easily master. They are wired hot, and they have just as much hunt (or search) in them as our V-dogs. We all like our particular breeds, and the sum total of their versatility is what makes them special dogs. To state they are more effective retrievers than the specialists is a stretch. The tests ran for the versatiles are simple pass or fail. At an open trial there is one winner. The dogs are so good that insane and unrealistic difficulty and distance must be used to get seperation and an eventual winner. In the specialty of retrieving they are the best of the best. Don't take my word for it. You are all dog people, attend an AKC open trial, and enjoy the dog work. If you are still skeptical, put a dog in one. I own a Pudelpointer and I am really enjoying all the abilities he brings to the field. I thoroughly enjoy training and hunting him. As I stated earlier, he is a really good fit for the varied hunting I do. If I was looking to solely run the best retriever I could possibly put down it would be a Lab.
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