Redemption LMAO

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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:42 pm

It's a natural ability test. Because it's natural ability, handling is supposed to be minimal. It's not a long or difficult blind. It tests the retrieve, use of nose, and willingness to enter the water without seeing the fall and nothing more.

Handling isn't emphasized by the jghv system so we don't test the dogs on their ability to take commands to the bird. It's why my 3 and 4 year old utility dogs have ZERO handling training. My dogs don't know back, left or right. It's an oversight, I agree. I plan to work on these skills as soon as the season is over.

But to discuss THIS test, it needed to be understood that handling is not emphasized to the point that it's rarely taught except by those that had labs prior to switching breeds.

We use our dogs to search without knowing a bird is down all the time when hunting. We "clean up" what other dogs have left behind.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:19 pm

Yanno, Lab-Versatile arguments are almost as entertaining as the DD-GWP argument. In the "i'll get the popcorn" factor, they rank right up there with the merits of field trial pointers and how useful they are to the average hunter.

Misskiwi67 wrote:It's a natural ability test. Because it's natural ability, handling is supposed to be minimal. It's not a long or difficult blind. It tests the retrieve, use of nose, and willingness to enter the water without seeing the fall and nothing more.

Handling isn't emphasized by the jghv system so we don't test the dogs on their ability to take commands to the bird. It's why my 3 and 4 year old utility dogs have ZERO handling training. My dogs don't know back, left or right. It's an oversight, I agree. I plan to work on these skills as soon as the season is over.

But to discuss THIS test, it needed to be understood that handling is not emphasized to the point that it's rarely taught except by those that had labs prior to switching breeds.

We use our dogs to search without knowing a bird is down all the time when hunting. We "clean up" what other dogs have left behind.

That's obnoxiously arrogant. I've never been checked by a game warden with a v-dawg. They do have labs that have gone out and searched for lost or hidden birds while they check our limits. I can't say I've ever met a duck guide that uses a Draht or GWP or GSP or DK (although they could be out there,) but I have met a duck guide that has a draht and leaves him at home and brings the lab when he takes out clients.

If they were better at recovering birds, people would have figured it out by now. They are not. They are proficient at the task, and some of them are equal, but not generally superior.

Most of us buy a versatile for the same reasons Ze Germans developed them; we can't keep a kennel full of Pointers to find the game, Cockers to flush, and Labs to retrieve. We do some upland, some duck hunting, and tracking a deer is an added bonus. Actually, its the same reason a lot of people keep labs, but the needle is tilted more in the "upland" direction.

Implying a superiority at a particular task over a specialist is ridiculous.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:14 pm

JONOV wrote:If they were better at recovering birds, people would have figured it out by now. They are not. They are proficient at the task, and some of them are equal, but not generally superior.

Implying a superiority at a particular task over a specialist is ridiculous.


The average DD is head and shoulders better than the average lab. At everything related to actual hunting. Particularly recovering birds. Most people land on a breed completely ignorant of their alternatives and remain so for the rest of their days so popularity demonstrates nothing in regards to quality.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:29 pm

This wasnt suppose to be a lab/Vdog debate. All of our dogs serve our purposes or we would switch breeds.
You would be surprised at the number of new KLM owners that were previously lab owners. Part of me thinks it is because they have seen the versatility and part of me thinks that A LOT of people want these dogs as novelty items. The "rare breed" that isnt so rare complex.

On the flip side. I am sure plenty of people that have had v dogs have switched to labs.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:16 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
JONOV wrote:If they were better at recovering birds, people would have figured it out by now. They are not. They are proficient at the task, and some of them are equal, but not generally superior.

Implying a superiority at a particular task over a specialist is ridiculous.


The average DD is head and shoulders better than the average lab. At everything related to actual hunting. Particularly recovering birds. Most people land on a breed completely ignorant of their alternatives and remain so for the rest of their days so popularity demonstrates nothing in regards to quality.

It depends what you hunt and it depends how often you hunt. Ducks and pheasants and probably ruffed grouse? I would bet if you took a lab from hunting lines that hunted 20-30 days a year and a DD that hunted 20-30 days a year the success rate would be pretty similar, both at retrieves and putting birds up. Again, I’d take the bearded dog every time but that doesn’t mean labs don’t remain popular with hunters for a reason. The problem with labs is that people don’t know what ”kind” of lab line to look for. The same can be said for plenty of other breeds.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:22 pm

SMAbby wrote:This wasnt suppose to be a lab/Vdog debate. All of our dogs serve our purposes or we would switch breeds.
You would be surprised at the number of new KLM owners that were previously lab owners. Part of me thinks it is because they have seen the versatility and part of me thinks that A LOT of people want these dogs as novelty items. The "rare breed" that isnt so rare complex.

On the flip side. I am sure plenty of people that have had v dogs have switched to labs.

I can’t imagine the “novelty” complex you deal with for the KLM. Ron Boehme talks about it with his Braccos on the podcast. At east KLM’s are highly regarded and proven in the hunting community that I hve to imagine breeders can find hunting homes exclusively.

I know it wasn’t your intent to start an argument. It happens though.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:34 pm

I was actually going to make a post about the topic of hunting homes.
I have made great effort to ensure my pups got to hunting homes. But they lie to you. I am sick to my stomach as I call to check in on pups at 5 months only to told that the dog hasnt seen a bird. I have pups that are duck hunting and blood tracking at 5 1/2 months. These others are wasting talent.
I dont know how to screen when the info you get is false.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:35 pm

SMAbby wrote:I was actually going to make a post about the topic of hunting homes.
I have made great effort to ensure my pups got to hunting homes. But they lie to you. I am sick to my stomach as I call to check in on pups at 5 months only to told that the dog hasnt seen a bird. I have pups that are duck hunting and blood tracking at 5 1/2 months. These others are wasting talent.
I dont know how to screen when the info you get is false.

Facebook. If you find them there and they hunt, they’ll at least have a couple pictures. Especially if they’re younger (under 40.) I’ll put it this way. My brother doesn’t share much on Facebook. He fishes 9 days a year. He puts up a fishing picture every year.

Otherwise you can ask them more detailed questions about what/when/where they hunt. What kind of shotgun do you like? The truth will out most of the time. It sounds like an interrogation but hey, you’ve got the goods and it isn’t like a lab or GSP, you don’t find a litter on every corner and you will sell the pups (I would assume before they’re more than a ball of cells.)

I used to live in an old, upscale neighborhood of Raleigh. Lots of people had GSP’s as a fashion piece to go along with the Barbour jacket and SUV. At least a lot of the soccer moms took them running. Vizslas also seem to be popular with the thin and active young crowd. Sad, kinda...
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby ryanr » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am

JONOV wrote:Yanno, Lab-Versatile arguments are almost as entertaining as the DD-GWP argument. In the "i'll get the popcorn" factor, they rank right up there with the merits of field trial pointers and how useful they are to the average hunter.

Misskiwi67 wrote:It's a natural ability test. Because it's natural ability, handling is supposed to be minimal. It's not a long or difficult blind. It tests the retrieve, use of nose, and willingness to enter the water without seeing the fall and nothing more.

Handling isn't emphasized by the jghv system so we don't test the dogs on their ability to take commands to the bird. It's why my 3 and 4 year old utility dogs have ZERO handling training. My dogs don't know back, left or right. It's an oversight, I agree. I plan to work on these skills as soon as the season is over.

But to discuss THIS test, it needed to be understood that handling is not emphasized to the point that it's rarely taught except by those that had labs prior to switching breeds.

We use our dogs to search without knowing a bird is down all the time when hunting. We "clean up" what other dogs have left behind.

That's obnoxiously arrogant. I've never been checked by a game warden with a v-dawg. They do have labs that have gone out and searched for lost or hidden birds while they check our limits. I can't say I've ever met a duck guide that uses a Draht or GWP or GSP or DK (although they could be out there,) but I have met a duck guide that has a draht and leaves him at home and brings the lab when he takes out clients.

If they were better at recovering birds, people would have figured it out by now. They are not. They are proficient at the task, and some of them are equal, but not generally superior.

Most of us buy a versatile for the same reasons Ze Germans developed them; we can't keep a kennel full of Pointers to find the game, Cockers to flush, and Labs to retrieve. We do some upland, some duck hunting, and tracking a deer is an added bonus. Actually, its the same reason a lot of people keep labs, but the needle is tilted more in the "upland" direction.

Implying a superiority at a particular task over a specialist is ridiculous.


Actually Jonov, I think you completely misread her statement "about cleaning up what other dogs have left behind." She spoke in general, not singling out Labradors or any breed in particular. And, in general, she's absolutely right since game recovery was a foremost priority of the Germans when developing the breed. I don't see where sbe was,even trying to argue that from a pure waterfowl retrieving aspect the Labrador isn't superior than a versatile. Now personally, and admittedly I don't have the decades,of experience others have but I haven't seen a breed as generally tenacious at recovering shot game and cripples as the Drahthaar. That still doesn't mean a DD is the overall better choice for a waterfowling dog and I don't think it is. However, as a breed, the DD's tenacity and drive to recover game is incredible to me. I had a Labrador that I think was a very good hunter, cooperative and intuitive and quite good and determined at recovering cripples but even just as a pup my DD's tenacity on cripples was REALLY something to watch. To this day it is without a doubt is strongest and best trait. Every year since he was a pup he hasn't failed to produce a bird recovery that hasn't left me or a hunting partner saying "holy sh*t." And believe me he's not a polished retriever.

I'm not arguing over which breed is a better hunting dog either, I think that's an impossible argument and not worth having. At least I'm not interested in having it as I wouldn't hesitate to hunt over fine Labrador, Wirehair, Setter, etc. I actually think that for the average hunter that does a little of everything a,Labrador is one of the most capable and versatile hunting dogs one could choose.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:40 pm

ryanr wrote:
JONOV wrote:Yanno, Lab-Versatile arguments are almost as entertaining as the DD-GWP argument. In the "i'll get the popcorn" factor, they rank right up there with the merits of field trial pointers and how useful they are to the average hunter.

Misskiwi67 wrote:It's a natural ability test. Because it's natural ability, handling is supposed to be minimal. It's not a long or difficult blind. It tests the retrieve, use of nose, and willingness to enter the water without seeing the fall and nothing more.

Handling isn't emphasized by the jghv system so we don't test the dogs on their ability to take commands to the bird. It's why my 3 and 4 year old utility dogs have ZERO handling training. My dogs don't know back, left or right. It's an oversight, I agree. I plan to work on these skills as soon as the season is over.

But to discuss THIS test, it needed to be understood that handling is not emphasized to the point that it's rarely taught except by those that had labs prior to switching breeds.

We use our dogs to search without knowing a bird is down all the time when hunting. We "clean up" what other dogs have left behind.

That's obnoxiously arrogant. I've never been checked by a game warden with a v-dawg. They do have labs that have gone out and searched for lost or hidden birds while they check our limits. I can't say I've ever met a duck guide that uses a Draht or GWP or GSP or DK (although they could be out there,) but I have met a duck guide that has a draht and leaves him at home and brings the lab when he takes out clients.

If they were better at recovering birds, people would have figured it out by now. They are not. They are proficient at the task, and some of them are equal, but not generally superior.

Most of us buy a versatile for the same reasons Ze Germans developed them; we can't keep a kennel full of Pointers to find the game, Cockers to flush, and Labs to retrieve. We do some upland, some duck hunting, and tracking a deer is an added bonus. Actually, its the same reason a lot of people keep labs, but the needle is tilted more in the "upland" direction.

Implying a superiority at a particular task over a specialist is ridiculous.


Actually Jonov, I think you completely misread her statement "about cleaning up what other dogs have left behind." She spoke in general, not singling out Labradors or any breed in particular. And, in general, she's absolutely right since game recovery was a foremost priority of the Germans when developing the breed. I don't see where sbe was,even trying to argue that from a pure waterfowl retrieving aspect the Labrador isn't superior than a versatile. Now personally, and admittedly I don't have the decades,of experience others have but I haven't seen a breed as generally tenacious at recovering shot game and cripples as the Drahthaar. That still doesn't mean a DD is the overall better choice for a waterfowling dog and I don't think it is. However, as a breed, the DD's tenacity and drive to recover game is incredible to me. I had a Labrador that I think was a very good hunter, cooperative and intuitive and quite good and determined at recovering cripples but even just as a pup my DD's tenacity on cripples was REALLY something to watch. To this day it is without a doubt is strongest and best trait. Every year since he was a pup he hasn't failed to produce a bird recovery that hasn't left me or a hunting partner saying "holy sh*t." And believe me he's not a polished retriever.

I'm not arguing over which breed is a better hunting dog either, I think that's an impossible argument and not worth having. At least I'm not interested in having it as I wouldn't hesitate to hunt over fine Labrador, Wirehair, Setter, etc. I actually think that for the average hunter that does a little of everything a,Labrador is one of the most capable and versatile hunting dogs one could choose.

GOod Points. I took the comment as a snipe at Kiger while he was talking about his experience with FT labs. It may not have been meant that way.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:42 pm

It wasn't meant that way. When we pick up decoys, the dogs search. We rarely hunt crowded areas and have dogs that make multiple retrieves, but I know others that do.

On one pond this year, we didn't get any shooting that day, but we did send Ari on a search, and sure as $#*! she found the crippled Suzie the lab (young dog, not necessarily a breed thing) that hunted with the group the day before couldn't find. We did not know where the duck was, we just knew it might be there... she found it.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:39 am

Miss Kiwi,
Lecture time, the educational type. This is to be educational.

As far as finding the duck the next day. We have done the same thing. My friends dogs have found birds mine have missed and vice versa. You believe that our dogs don't search. They do. We just don't waste much time training for it. Its a pretty natural thing for a hunting dog. What is not natural is being able to send that wonderful nose where I know it needs to be.

So Im sure you were happy when your dog found that duck. You should be, we don't want to waste birds. But did you ask yourself why the lab didn't find the bird??? Or did you just gloat?

There are many things that we don't understand about how a dog smells the world. One of my "rules" is, if a bird goes down, you don't go near the area of the fall. You send the dog. Ive seen many birds lost because people get to rooting around and then the dog cant pick up the scent. Cant explain it, but Ive seen it enough to make it a rule.

Years ago i was running an AKC hunt tests. Down to the the last series and theres 14 dogs left. Its a land test and the last bird goes into some very heavy cover. Dogs 1 to 8 pick up the bird with no issue. Dog 9 has some issues, and it gets worse from there. Dogs 11, 12 , and 13, cant find the bird. Im 14. I send the dog and she cant find the bird. Now I drove a long way and this was her last test to get titled. So having read the rules, I knew that the bird needed to be shot dead. So i asked the judges to have the gunner find the bird and if he couldn't, I should get a re run. Caused quite a stir. They couldn't find the bird. So they gave me a rerun. I went up to the line and I stopped and told the judge this. "My dog will not find that bird. There has been something that changed and its not the dogs fault" Sure enough , she couldn't find ANY of the ducks that were there. We got dropped. Your dog wouldn't have found the ducks either. Its not an issue about search, or quality of nose, its just scent.

So why did the lab not find the bird? Who knows. Hunted just upwind of the bird and missed it. Other bird scent covered it, Just bad scenting conditions, who knows? Why did your dog find it? Maybe because the bird ended up someplace other than where the lab was looking? Maybe, after 24 hours, the scenting conditions changed, birds been in the same area for quite awhile so its put out enough scent for a dog to find who knows????

Hers another tip. We dump a drake mallard in the creek/slough behind our blind. The banks are covered with very heavy canary grass. We get the dogs and have them work the banks. I went down and stood on the road. there was enough water that it was overflowing the culvert and flowing across the road just below my knees. Im standing there to block the duck should it try to escape. I catch some movement in the water and I see the duck flying underwater coming right at me. He is going to go right between my legs, but I reach down and grab him by the neck!. Would have been a great video. But the lesson is this. If i hadn't been there, we might have blamed the dogs for not finding the bird. By the way its the second dusk Ive seen fly underwater. When a dog fails to find the bird, its usually revolves around scent, not talent.

If you want to train for a search so you can find an occasional bird shot the day before have at it. I just don't see it as a skill that 1) needs to be trained for, 2) a skill that supersedes the ability to efficiently send the dog to the birds he doesn't see fall when hunting with me.

Its pretty simple, you are seeing the world how you have been educated, but you don't have all the education you need.

So take your victories when you can, but be aware you will have failures also.

Lecture over. Will be an open book quiz tomorrow!
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:24 am

I was around some FT Lab folks early on. They were training out of DL Walters' kennel. One Trainer, trained and handled my buddy's lab which was a very well bred dog. Had another buddy in that era that had some success running his Golden Retrievers in trials, hunt tests and hunting. I hung out with, trained and hunted with that crowd at the time and learned a few things.

The Retriever FT and Hunt Tests are all about controlling the dog. What is being called Search in this thread for those Retriever dog games bears no resemblance to the Search in the Vdog test systems. Polar opposites is what I observe.

I have hunted extensively with several labs that had excellent search using the term as seen in a Vdog duck search starting when I was 14. We hunted flooded green oak forest timber alot back then and the dog we hunted with was one of the best I have seen for recovering crippled ducks in that mess of flooded timber. Working completely independently and out of sight for 15 to 20 minutes at a time. Bringing back ducks we shot and or never shot, many times. In recent times I have hunted with a Guide dog Lab that gets 400-500 retrieves a year under mostly brutal conditions. The dog had a very modest level of handling training and alot of search and drive.

Another Buddy's dog that was trained and handled at DL's kennel, was hunted a great deal on wild pheasants and did a nice job on them. Had 7X wild roosters shot over him in his puppy season. He was sired by NFT champ and his mother was a MH and heavily FT bred as well. That dog had learned at a young age to quarter, use the wind and his nose to find, flush and recover birds, primarily rooster pheasants. The Trainer at DL's kennel could never get the dog to handle well at long distances and take the exceedingly long lines and control seen in the Retriever dog games. The dog wanted to use his nose and search and he did.

I have never seen a Retriever excelling at FT that would search anything close to what a Vdog, trained to search, will and I have never seen a Vdog hold a line and accept handling at long ranges anywhere near like what a FT Lab will.

We are talking past each other in this thread using an undefined term of Search. Duck search to a Vdog person is HUGE compared to a FT Retriever using its nose within a relatively very small area of fall to locate the bird in a FT.

It is not that all Labs are incapable of a Vdog type search, it is that their training and Retriever Trails do not want it or allow it. Vdogs on the other hand are for the most part not capable of accepting the level of control required to play Retriever dog games is my experience.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:25 am

Kiger, I'm pretty sure it was the dogs second real hunt. She's just inexperienced. I helped with her intro to birds at 12 weeks old last year getting her crazy about the ducks we brought home and encouraged this kid (high school) to put some effort into preparing his pup for this year. First dog, first hunting dog, never hunted over a trained dog until mine. From what I heard (I was working) the pup is showing a lot of potential and just needs more hunting time.

Tracking duck scent across water takes practice. You can train for it, or hunt the tar out of your dog. This pup has had neither and just couldn't find the duck. She had a broken wing and no other injuries to slow her down.

We regularly train with ducks that dive and swim a long way. The dogs learn with experience that if they lose scent, the duck dove. The dogs will swim in larger circles until they pick up scent. Ari will go to the downwind bank and try to wind the duck to relocate it. I EXPECT my dog to find that diving duck every time, no exceptions. We train for exactly that situation.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Average guy. I understand what is meant by "Search" . I will lose more birds because a dog cant handle than because it doesn't "Search".
Trials tests are not solely control oriented. The blinds are but the marks are not because if you "control" (handle) your dog on a mark, you are out. Marks test the dogs ability to trust its eyes and handle factors which could cause the dog to mismark the bird. The dog knows how to use its nose, it doesn't always know how to get its nose to where it can be used.

Miss kiwi, Our dogs will also "Search" when the duck dives. Ever increasing circles. Don't train for it, its just natural. But if the duck comes up where the dog cant see it, I don't have to hope that he dog will eventually get to the right spot. I send the dog to where I saw the bird.

And while I also expect that the dog will find every bird, I know it just doesn't happen. Hunt enough , shoot enough birds, you will lose some.

99.9% of the time one will have a pretty good idea where the bird went down. Far more efficient to send the dog than to rely on a "Search" only.
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