Redemption LMAO

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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:36 pm

Kiger2 wrote:I am concerned about the duck that was on the water and she didn't just go get it. Dipping a toe with a bird on the water is perplexing. May be a one off, or may be something else. A duck on the water should make her come unglued..


Yeah, I am not particularly thrilled about that either. Which is why I am going to see if this is a genetic thing or attitude through further testing. She has a lot of drive, I really just dont think she is crazy about the water. Aside from the fact that she has always pussy footed around on the water entry, there was a thick green moss on top of the water. I had never shown this to her before and wonder if this was her hesitation. Doesnt really matter though. I have a feeling I know what I am seeing.

Chukar would be fun...if I could keep up? She has a great search. Had an 11 on her first HZP and I think we got shorted and 11 on the second. It was every bit as good as the first. Just different judges, different days, different likes, thats is how it goes.
I think she would be a good sharpie dog, she moves out very good.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby RowdyGSP » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:50 pm

They all have what I call "dumb days" but I will say congrats on passing and look forward to hearing more about the upcoming tests and adventures... I sure do like your dogs and like seeing your posts about them.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:30 am

RowdyGSP wrote:They all have what I call "dumb days" but I will say congrats on passing and look forward to hearing more about the upcoming tests and adventures... I sure do like your dogs and like seeing your posts about them.


:D Thanks
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:10 am

Misskiwi.

If I had a dog that couldn't handle at all? ......Possible solutions: 1) Throw rocks, this seems to be the primary response I see. 2) Walk the dog to where the bird went down 3) Boat to where the bird went down. 4) Lose a lot of birds. My other thought would be I should have spent the time training to handle.

I think perhaps what you may be having trouble grasping is that a dog can do BOTH. On a mark. The dog is free to hunt as needed to locate the bird. I would only handle if the dog was getting way out of bounds We can also release the dog to hunt on its own with a command.

Dogs have natural tendencies that we need to be aware of. Heres are some examples, bare with me, Im trying to help you understand some things you haven't been taught or experienced.

Take smabbys pond. She sends the dog the island and the dog finds the bird and returns. But there was another bird shot that landed on the far shore but on a 30 degree different line or angle. You send the dog and it takes off. dog is looking at a long swim. Dog is also free to search on its own correct. So the dog being as smart as einstein figures he found a bird on the island the last time he was out, so he returns to the island. Without solid handling skills, you may never get the dog past the island. So now imagine the second bird fell on the far shore but in line with the first bird. How easy would it be to get the dog to go past the island???

Ive told this before but its worth repeating here. My first good dog was entered in ret trio derby. (dogs 2 and under, mostly doubles on land and water). The test was a long channel of water. First bird down came right to left about 150 yards out and landed in the center of the channel. Second bird was to the left, maybe 50 yards and landed on the bank. Part of the test was to see if the dog would cut the corner on the second bird or take the water. My Mentor and I walked to watch the test dog run. She looked at the set up and said I was going to fail. I said really why? She said because we hadn't trained for the test. Since the dog had not been trained, the dog would revert back to its natural INDEPENDENCE. She said my dog would pickup the first bird no problem but when she went to get the long bird she would switch and go back to the old fall. Sure enough, that exactly what the dog did, she hit the water and took a good line to he first bird but when she got even with the old fall she made a sharp left turn. In fact about a third of the dogs failed in the same way. Since this was a marking test she was out. But had I been hunting with a dog that handled well, i could cast the dog off the old fall to the long bird.

The test was set up because it eliminated dogs that were acting on their own. Your dogs would do the exact same thing which is not getting the bird.

Getting the dog to go out is only part of the problem. Getting the dog to go out and then get a correction when they are off line is the key.

Its really simple. We need to get the dog and its nose to where it can smell the bird. The most efficient way to do this is to have a dog that we can direct. Having to retrieve a bird that you have no idea where it is is very rare.

If we look at what the experts in retrieving are doing, ret trial, aka hunt tests. You'll see there are no specific tests for "search". Think about that for a minute.

Raealistically, you may have to train the search for the venues you participate in , but for hunting, you would do better to train for handling and not for the search.

So if you had to choose between 3 dogs all with equal natural talents. Would you pick the dog with no training. Dog that had a great search, or a dog that could handle really well?

Remember, I have retrievers, thats their specialty they are trained for. But they make excellent hunters, so Im not giving up anything by training for handling.

Smabby, one other thing I forgot to add for you. Watch the 24/7 hunt video. Watch the handler, watch his body motion and especially his hand. He is signaling the dog where he wants it to go as the dog is returning. He's communicating with the dog without saying anything.Commands don't always have to be verbal.

Rowdys right , the all have dumb days, but there is a difference between a dumb day because they messed up or dumb day because we messed up. You will have fewer dumb days as you get educated and prepare the dog better. Good luck!
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:46 pm

Labs handle, versatiles search. Handling loses you points in search subjects.

I wasn't looking for a lecture on why your dogs were better, but how it would change your opinion of the testing circumstances if NONE of the dogs were taught to handle.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:01 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Labs handle, versatiles search. Handling loses you points in search subjects.

I wasn't looking for a lecture on why your dogs were better, but how it would change your opinion of the testing circumstances if NONE of the dogs were taught to handle.


Ease up a bit here. I can see both sides pretty clearly. I dont feel this was a lecture, more of an explanation.

Before I taught blinds I just had dogs that new how to duck search. Well, in real hunting, that became frustrating. I know where the duck is, why cant I just tell it to go here and not risk her searching while another flock flares.
Then came the blind....I left the old dog at home and started taking the dogs that knew blinds. It was better.

Kiger2, Alot of us are told early on that teaching our dogs to handle will make them less independent. We dont have to teach our dogs to handle as much as lab trial require. We can do enough to get the job done.

We can handle in our tests. But it does dock you. But if you have to or can, do it.

I learned 2 years ago not to train my dogs to make test judges happy. I see them maybe 3 times in my dogs life. I see and work them ALL of their hunting life.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:43 am

Misskiwi, I answered your question,then you get upset ????? I never said my dogs were better. /\Im just explaining the advantages of handling and that it is in fact a most valuable asset.

And it was hardly lecture. I just tried to explain to you that dogs see things differently and that we need to be aware of those issues in order to properly train and that incudes correcting mistakes. You don't want to correct a dog for something you should have trained for . Im trying to explain some behaviors that you are unaware of. You also made a false statement. Labs /ret handle AND search. You need to drive the handling screws up independence/search junk out of your head.

On another thread. You said "Every duck is a blind/search.". So if most of the birds you shoot are blinds, then teaching handling is a much higher priority over search.

I will now answer your clarified question. My opinion of the testing circumstances where no dog could handle are this. I think testing for search is a waste of valuable time. Especially the way its been described here. You get to send the dog on a "line" thats handling. But you get dinged if the dog has to be handled??? Is it a blind or a search? If you want to have a valid search test. It should be this simple. You walk up to edge of pond and say "search" and then sit down in a chair and wait.

Smabby,
I understand how you have been trained. Sorry you have been misled. I think if you look at history it will help explain things. Handling was developed here in the US based on some folks that watched sheep trials and realized they could have a much better dog if they could send it to the bird. The versatile tests were based on experience where there was no handling. If your dog doesn't know how to handle then all you have left is its search. Now, people in the versatile world in support of their system, came up with this stuff about losing independence, don't want a robot etc....

So heres my advice. Use the time you have to train to train to the highest level you can. It won't be to ret trial level, but strive to get close as possible. I don't have to time to train to trial level, but I train like thats where Im headed, and Im very aware that my dog will not have the skills to recover every bird it could have at a higher level of training.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby LongHammer » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:03 pm

Sounds like you had fun. Isn't that what we do with our dogs? Your description tells me you were on edge and unsure. Your dog followed your lead. Don't worry. My dog would blow a test just because he got to bored waiting his turn. He is a killer not a waiter.The same dog will chase a crippled coot a half mile down a river and bring it back. Seems like taking your dog hunting is the worse thing you can do to train a hunting dog. LOL
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby LongHammer » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:04 pm

The VDF DOUBLE Post
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby SMAbby » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:11 pm

LongHammer wrote:Sounds like you had fun. Isn't that what we do with our dogs? Your description tells me you were on edge and unsure. Your dog followed your lead. Don't worry. My dog would blow a test just because he got to bored waiting his turn. He is a killer not a waiter.The same dog will chase a crippled coot a half mile down a river and bring it back. Seems like taking your dog hunting is the worse thing you can do to train a hunting dog. LOL



Big plans to hunt her on a primo woodie pond......but as it would happen, she is in heat... :( Sometimes I hate bitches!
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:56 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Labs handle, versatiles search. Handling loses you points in search subjects.

I wasn't looking for a lecture on why your dogs were better, but how it would change your opinion of the testing circumstances if NONE of the dogs were taught to handle.

That's a bit simplistic. It maybe true in the doggy-game world but for anyone that actually hunts not so much.

I can't give my dog a line like an FT Lab and have him b-line out in that direction. But he can take a hand signal and work in that direction, and he will expand a search without direction from me.

If labs couldn't search they wouldn't be very popular with duck hunters, and we know that isn't the case.

I've yet to hunt with a lab that can't search extremely well in the weeds. I've seen them disappear in the reeds for 20 minutes on a blind retrieve and come back with the very live bird.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:08 pm

JONOV wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Labs handle, versatiles search. Handling loses you points in search subjects.

I wasn't looking for a lecture on why your dogs were better, but how it would change your opinion of the testing circumstances if NONE of the dogs were taught to handle.

That's a bit simplistic. It maybe true in the doggy-game world but for anyone that actually hunts not so much.

I can't give my dog a line like an FT Lab and have him b-line out in that direction. But he can take a hand signal and work in that direction, and he will expand a search without direction from me.

If labs couldn't search they wouldn't be very popular with duck hunters, and we know that isn't the case.

I've yet to hunt with a lab that can't search extremely well in the weeds. I've seen them disappear in the reeds for 20 minutes on a blind retrieve and come back with the very live bird.


This is a discussion about a hunt test.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:17 pm

Miss kiwi,
So in the context of trials and tests for ret. They do search. Ret trials and tests evaluate dogs on two main skills. Marks and blinds. Points are deducted on marks for handling. The only reasons to handle on a mark is if the dog mismarks the bird or expands its search outside the area of the fall. A ret that won't search, will miss birds during the test or trial and suffer the consequences.

One whistle is enough to cost you a trial win. Hunt tests are somewhat more forgiving but still deductions for having to handle on marks.

Remember, There are two types of lectures. One that is an admonishment and the other is educational. Don't misconstrue what we are doing.
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:02 pm

There's no marks in this test. Only a blind, and a search with a live clip-wing (blind with search).

And in our tests only minimal handling is allowed. If you have to give multiple commands you lose points and fast. It is better to have your dog read your body language than to be dependent upon you for a command.

So all your "advice" would be detrimental in the test this dog was doing. MAYBE 1 in 4 know any handling at all at this point.

So again, other than looking down your nose at a different style of training than yours, how does your assessment change knowing this?
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Re: Redemption LMAO

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:21 am

Misskiwi,

Its not relevant if there are marking tests. I only made the comment to inform you that ret do search.
Im not looking down my nose at the training.
Its the method of testing. You cant give multiple commands on a blind when its the most important skill to have????? And the test is a blind??? A bird is down, you know its down. You have an idea where the bird is. Yet instead of testing a dog on its ability to be trained to be directed to the area where the bird went down, its tested on a general ability to get somewhere near and then hunt???

Cant give commands, but body language is OK?????

My assessment is this. If you are going to test a dog on its ability to search, then its very simple. Take the dog and handler to an area and say search this area. No further commands or "body language". Theres no real middle ground. You either have an idea where the bird went down. (probably 99.9% of the time) or you don't. If you know where the bird went down, then handle. If you don't, then the only command needed is search.

Think about this. Why on earth would you ask the dog to search if you didn't know a bird was down???? And of you had a bird go down, would you not have a general idea where it went down???

How does the testing you participating in help the breed when it comes to birds that go down and you know where they went down and the dog doesn't??????
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