New To The Griff World

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby GRIFF MAN » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:11 pm

Please stay on topic.

This is childish and if you want to continue start a new thread so i dont need to read it.

Thanks,
GRIFF MAN * LOVING LIFE AND MY GRIFF!

Aspen Glo's Kennels
Wirehaired Pointing Griffons
www.aspenglokennel.com
User avatar
GRIFF MAN
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1765
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:16 am
Location: wisconsin

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:29 pm

JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:" How about something really innovative....let's say.....the males have to score in the top 5% to 10% to be considered breed worthy. After all, the males can breed multiple females and at least one side of the equation are throwing something besides average genes......theoretically of course."

That went well.


HC,

I can't say that only 5 or 10 % achieve the scores listed as acceptable for NAPPA, but they do have requirements that must be met. Females must pass the NA with a score of 105 out of 112, and males must pass the UT (the latter you probably already knew). The female NA requirement of 105 for breeding was discussed among NAPPA breeders and increased a handful of years ago as they felt the breed had improved and more were passing, so they upped the bar to continue breed progress. Hope that helps.


In an attempt to reign this back in to some semblance of the original topic (which I thought was a discussion on a new WPG breeding alliance)...

Do you think that having those kind of standards ever eliminates what you would otherwise consider as being "breedable" dogs within that breed? For instance, let's say you went hunting and ran into an owner of a PP and you were utterly in awe of the dog's abilities and temperament, but the owner had no interest in or access to run in tests. Let's just say he was an old timer who didn't care about that. Is your perspective that if someone does not or cannot participate in NAVHDA testing (or perhaps another form of testing), then their dogs are simply not breed-worthy regardless of whether or not they hunt and have great temperaments?
bp17oang
Started
Started
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:59 am

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:34 pm

"Do you think that having those kind of standards ever eliminates what you would otherwise consider as being "breedable" dogs within that breed? For instance, let's say you went hunting and ran into an owner of a PP and you were utterly in awe of the dog's abilities and temperament, but the owner had no interest in or access to run in tests. Let's just say he was an old timer who didn't care about that. Is your perspective that if someone does not or cannot participate in NAVHDA testing (or perhaps another form of testing), then their dogs are simply not breed-worthy regardless of whether or not they hunt and have great temperaments?"

Don't think it will be a problem. That old timer can breed that great dog all he wants if he isn't hampered by being part of the alliance. The only ones that will be tied to the rules on what constitutes a great, breedable dog are the members.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3532
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:42 pm

hicntry wrote:"Do you think that having those kind of standards ever eliminates what you would otherwise consider as being "breedable" dogs within that breed? For instance, let's say you went hunting and ran into an owner of a PP and you were utterly in awe of the dog's abilities and temperament, but the owner had no interest in or access to run in tests. Let's just say he was an old timer who didn't care about that. Is your perspective that if someone does not or cannot participate in NAVHDA testing (or perhaps another form of testing), then their dogs are simply not breed-worthy regardless of whether or not they hunt and have great temperaments?"

Don't think it will be a problem. That old timer can breed that great dog all he wants if he isn't hampered by being part of the alliance. The only ones that will be tied to the rules on what constitutes a great, breedable dog are the members.


I understand he can do what he wants. He's not in the alliance. I am curious what the alliance's position is that it might be missing out on the potential benefits of that dog's genetics. After all, it's supposed to be about hunting and not test scores, right?

What I am suggesting here is that the breed alliances we are discussing have a primary focus on hunting. Well, tests seem to be the only way to "prove" this for the purposes of breeding. But do tests always = hunting? It might, or it might not. One thing I do know is that hunting = hunting.
bp17oang
Started
Started
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:59 am

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:46 pm

bp17oang wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:" How about something really innovative....let's say.....the males have to score in the top 5% to 10% to be considered breed worthy. After all, the males can breed multiple females and at least one side of the equation are throwing something besides average genes......theoretically of course."

That went well.


HC,

I can't say that only 5 or 10 % achieve the scores listed as acceptable for NAPPA, but they do have requirements that must be met. Females must pass the NA with a score of 105 out of 112, and males must pass the UT (the latter you probably already knew). The female NA requirement of 105 for breeding was discussed among NAPPA breeders and increased a handful of years ago as they felt the breed had improved and more were passing, so they upped the bar to continue breed progress. Hope that helps.


In an attempt to reign this back in to some semblance of the original topic (which I thought was a discussion on a new WPG breeding alliance)...

Do you think that having those kind of standards ever eliminates what you would otherwise consider as being "breedable" dogs within that breed? For instance, let's say you went hunting and ran into an owner of a PP and you were utterly in awe of the dog's abilities and temperament, but the owner had no interest in or access to run in tests. Let's just say he was an old timer who didn't care about that. Is your perspective that if someone does not or cannot participate in NAVHDA testing (or perhaps another form of testing), then their dogs are simply not breed-worthy regardless of whether or not they hunt and have great temperaments?


That is a great question and I think the honest answer is yes. The requirements will omit some dogs no doubt. It also does a pretty good job of eliminating many dogs that would drag the breed down, the bottom 50%, lets say. By eliminating the bottom 50% the average dog being produced within the alliance is higher/better, theoretically, than the average outside the alliance. Take a look at many breeds that went the way of the AKC to see what happens to breeds with unlimited breeding ability by whomever and see what the average of those breeds look like. Now you will find great dogs within the AKC from top notch breeders here and there, but the average of a breed as a whole is not too good most of the time. The top notch breeders in the alliances will also breed better dogs (because there standards are higher than the minimum) than other alliance members that simply breed to the minimum requirements set forth, but the minimum requirements are a good place to start. I think the spirit of the requirements is to make sure the breed continues to be as good as originally intended and progress the breed if possible.
Last edited by JTracyII on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby gwp4me2 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:01 pm

If you gather 3 or more people together there will be varying levels of talent and drive to excel. Those at the top don't really 'need' anybody else to move them forward. The best people among them choose to help others learn excel as well. An alliance is an opportunity to network with those whom you may have never even heard about otherwise. I have met or heard of most of the serious GWP people who are close enough to me to where I can personally see their dogs. Hunt tests and trials have taken me hundreds of miles away from home where I have met and seen others. Now I have much more of a network where I can get intel. Anybody who bases their breeding decision on the test score of a single individual dog is just as foolish as the guy who trusts the 'best hunting dog ever' story they hear from a stranger.
gwp4me2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:18 pm

JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:" How about something really innovative....let's say.....the males have to score in the top 5% to 10% to be considered breed worthy. After all, the males can breed multiple females and at least one side of the equation are throwing something besides average genes......theoretically of course."

That went well.


HC,

I can't say that only 5 or 10 % achieve the scores listed as acceptable for NAPPA, but they do have requirements that must be met. Females must pass the NA with a score of 105 out of 112, and males must pass the UT (the latter you probably already knew). The female NA requirement of 105 for breeding was discussed among NAPPA breeders and increased a handful of years ago as they felt the breed had improved and more were passing, so they upped the bar to continue breed progress. Hope that helps.


You are saying that the NAPPA raised the bar. I commend them for that. So, what is the low end of the scale if 112 is the high end. This 105 is just required of the females?
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3532
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby gwp4me2 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:57 pm

hicntry wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:" How about something really innovative....let's say.....the males have to score in the top 5% to 10% to be considered breed worthy. After all, the males can breed multiple females and at least one side of the equation are throwing something besides average genes......theoretically of course."

That went well.


HC,

I can't say that only 5 or 10 % achieve the scores listed as acceptable for NAPPA, but they do have requirements that must be met. Females must pass the NA with a score of 105 out of 112, and males must pass the UT (the latter you probably already knew). The female NA requirement of 105 for breeding was discussed among NAPPA breeders and increased a handful of years ago as they felt the breed had improved and more were passing, so they upped the bar to continue breed progress. Hope that helps.


You are saying that the NAPPA raised the bar. I commend them for that. So, what is the low end of the scale if 112 is the high end. This 105 is just required of the females?

I've always felt like an alliance needed a good review committee. Take for example the NA 105. An NA test can be run from under 4 months of age to 16 months. The score is not adjusted for age. Did the dog get a 105 because of a difficult track or lack of desire or nose? Poor cooperation because it spent the whole time in the field chasing chukars around? The worst score I ever got on an NA test was one of the best dogs. She got a bad break on the track along with being pretty young. The committee also needs the option to raise the bar across the board at least on new animals. Grandfather in dogs if you must but learn and adjust.
gwp4me2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:01 pm

hicntry wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
hicntry wrote:" How about something really innovative....let's say.....the males have to score in the top 5% to 10% to be considered breed worthy. After all, the males can breed multiple females and at least one side of the equation are throwing something besides average genes......theoretically of course."

That went well.


HC,

I can't say that only 5 or 10 % achieve the scores listed as acceptable for NAPPA, but they do have requirements that must be met. Females must pass the NA with a score of 105 out of 112, and males must pass the UT (the latter you probably already knew). The female NA requirement of 105 for breeding was discussed among NAPPA breeders and increased a handful of years ago as they felt the breed had improved and more were passing, so they upped the bar to continue breed progress. Hope that helps.


You are saying that the NAPPA raised the bar. I commend them for that. So, what is the low end of the scale if 112 is the high end. This 105 is just required of the females?


Regarding your question about the low end is difficult to answer because of the way NAVHDA scores the different catagories. Each of the 7 categories for the NA (e.g., nose, point, water, etc.) is scored from 1-4 and there is a weighted system for each category. If a dog scored 1 in each category then that would be multiplied by a weighted number for that category and the sum total of all of the multiplied numbers would be your absolute low end. It is less complicated than it sounds.

Yes, the 105 is for the females only. Males must pass the UT, which as others have pointed out is quite a bit about the training and handling of a dog, but there are absolutely genetic factors in my opinion involved in passing the UT. The duck search for example is more about genetics than training, although training is a part of getting them there. Then, there is the whole concept of being "trainable" enough in the first place to pass the UT, which I think is a genetic trait. For those that disagree, I wish you could have owned an Irish Setter I once had....
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby jfwhit » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:24 pm

A PP breeder told me about his conversation with breeders of other breeds about what they feel is the perfect score. 110 with a 3 in cooperation. Meaning the dog has some independence they desire for a hunting dog.

Also, my breeder had an order of importance he focused on.

1) Affectionate/friendly personality with a high IQ being the most important attribute.
2) Abilities on wild birds the second most important attribute.
4) Capable of performing winter waterfowling
3) NAVHDA test score accomplishments are the fourth most important attribute.

He said a test is only one day. But how they act in the home and how they interact with the family happens everyday.
jfwhit
Started
Started
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:21 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby orhunter » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:47 pm

A 3 in cooperation is a must. A 2 isn't bad either. Gimme a dog with pizzazz.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7201
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:05 am

What is the reasoning behind setting the bar for breeding bitches so much lower than males?
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby orhunter » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:45 am

AG:

Good males are harder to find. Also, males can sire a number of litters while bitches have a limited number. Fewer males are needed so the standards can be higher.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7201
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby STait » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:58 am

AverageGuy wrote:What is the reasoning behind setting the bar for breeding bitches so much lower than males?


My guess would be because they want to be able to produce litters. Set the bar higher for males so at least there's a male to take your bitch to.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:39 am

STait wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:What is the reasoning behind setting the bar for breeding bitches so much lower than males?


My guess would be because they want to be able to produce litters. Set the bar higher for males so at least there's a male to take your bitch to.


I'm not sure as I have not asked, but my guess is that this is true. There would be very few litters if both males and females had to pass UT. Males can influence the breed much more than a female as we all know due to their ability to sire so many litters in their lifetime, which I am sure is the logic in making them achieve a higher bar. I see some validity in the way that the German WIrehair Alliance has things set up as they require either the male or female be UT prized and the other must have passed NA, so it is not necessarily the male that has to be UT prized. This would remedy, in part, some of the concerns about certain male dogs being left out of the breeding pool due to not passing UT tests. Of course, they would still have to pass the NA, but there are many more owners willing to test at the NA level, but not the UT for obvious reasons.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mtlhdr, Shooter and 7 guests