New To The Griff World

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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:03 am

Good replies so I will pass.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:29 am

How do other alliances handle things like "temperament"? The new WPG alliance seems to indicate if there is nothing noted bad on temperament from a NAVHDA test, then that is good enough. I am curious what other clubs say or evaluate this aspect of the dogs they consider breedable.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby orhunter » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:57 am

As much as I've been able to gather about the NAVHDA temperament thing is, the dog allowed the judge to examine the dog and not get bitten or growled at.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:30 pm

bp17oang wrote:How do other alliances handle things like "temperament"? The new WPG alliance seems to indicate if there is nothing noted bad on temperament from a NAVHDA test, then that is good enough. I am curious what other clubs say or evaluate this aspect of the dogs they consider breedable.


NAPPA simply notes that breeding dogs must not have temperament disorders, so this is left up to the breeder to determine. Temperament is subjective. Each breeder will have minor differences in preference for temperament I am sure, which is why it is important that folks look at more than test scores when determining which breeder or dog pairing to go with. Do the male and female being bred have temperaments that you prefer?
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:05 pm

JTracyII wrote:
bp17oang wrote:How do other alliances handle things like "temperament"? The new WPG alliance seems to indicate if there is nothing noted bad on temperament from a NAVHDA test, then that is good enough. I am curious what other clubs say or evaluate this aspect of the dogs they consider breedable.


NAPPA simply notes that breeding dogs must not have temperament disorders, so this is left up to the breeder to determine. Temperament is subjective. Each breeder will have minor differences in preference for temperament I am sure, which is why it is important that folks look at more than test scores when determining which breeder or dog pairing to go with. Do the male and female being bred have temperaments that you prefer?


My personal definition of "temperament" is quite a bit broader than did the dog let a judge look at its teeth or coat without biting him. Temperament to me means trainability, cooperation, willingness to work with a handler, social skills around other dogs and humans, ability to handle new environments, does the dog handle being kenneled for long hunting trips, does the dog try to read my mind, how the dog handles stress/pressure, can the dog act sane in a house, among many other things. You can glean some of this from a test, in particular a UT. If a dog can do that, then one has to imagine it has a trainable temperament.

One would hope breeders are doing the right thing on evaluating temperaments. One would also hope they are doing the same for hunting traits without test scores requirements, but I will leave well enough alone on that. I guess my point here is that, there is some level of irony in setting hard and fast requirements on test scores, but not anything hard and fast on temperaments (which I think would be as important for most of us as a test score). I concede it would be difficult to set anything hard and fast on this, but it might be equally as difficult to know if a dog hunts because it passed an NA test.

I think we can also agree that within the bounds of objective guidelines, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in hunt tests too. Taking a handlers' clinic will supply evidence of that. I am not saying that's bad, it's just the truth.

Ultimately my question is does anyone know of a group or alliance that has a more in-depth evaluation of temperaments of determining breedable dogs beyond did the judge look at its teeth?
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:44 pm

BP's thoughts on temperament are probably more the norm today. Personally, I like a dog that challenges me and isn't afraid to flip me off. When they flip me off, I can't help but smile because of the places I know I can take this dog that most handlers will never see or appreciate.......and I know that once they got it....they got it forever. I brought in an East German dog because there was years of line breeding behind him that you can rarely find done by US breeders today.....and I had already figured out that just breeding hunting dogs to hunting dogs was very counterproductive. He was line bred for bitework and had generations of bitework titles behind him He was a nice dog and eager to please. He bored me to death is the only way I can put it. So, I think temperament is closely tied to how much dog a person can actually handle.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:52 pm

hicntry wrote:BP's thoughts on temperament are probably more the norm today. Personally, I like a dog that challenges me and isn't afraid to flip me off. When they flip me off, I can't help but smile because of the places I know I can take this dog that most handlers will never see or appreciate.......and I know that once they got it....they got it forever. I brought in an East German dog because there was years of line breeding behind him that you can rarely find done by US breeders today.....and I had already figured out that just breeding hunting dogs to hunting dogs was very counterproductive. He was line bred for bitework and had generations of bitework titles behind him He was a nice dog and eager to please. He bored me to death is the only way I can put it. So, I think temperament is closely tied to how much dog a person can actually handle.


I am ok with a bit of wild thing, so long as it can be reigned in when I want it to. This goes to my "can the dog read my mind" temperament :D
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby gwp4me2 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:54 pm

Defining and testing for the best temperament in a dog is like trying to decide the perfect personality in a woman. Everybody wants something a little different. What we all want IMHO is a stable dog that we can trust. Beyond that I've heard a ton of variation. The pro trainers like tough, hard dogs that can take the serious pressure of getting things done fast. They don't have time to coddle a soft dog. Many people like the soft dog that all they have to do is give them a dirty look and the dog comes to their feet begging for forgiveness. Lots of owners don't have the temperament themselves to get a really hard dog's attention. So judging temperament is like judging search by the dogs range, some judges tend to punish big runners(cooperation) and some judges tend to punish close workers(desire). 'Ideal' is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:04 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:Defining and testing for the best temperament in a dog is like trying to decide the perfect personality in a woman. Everybody wants something a little different. What we all want IMHO is a stable dog that we can trust. Beyond that I've heard a ton of variation. The pro trainers like tough, hard dogs that can take the serious pressure of getting things done fast. They don't have time to coddle a soft dog. Many people like the soft dog that all they have to do is give them a dirty look and the dog comes to their feet begging for forgiveness. Lots of owners don't have the temperament themselves to get a really hard dog's attention. So judging temperament is like judging search by the dogs range, some judges tend to punish big runners(cooperation) and some judges tend to punish close workers(desire). 'Ideal' is in the eye of the beholder.


X2
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:04 pm

I personally prefer NAPPA's way of doing the temperament thing as it "oddly" to me seems like a higher bar than not being judged problematic by a NAVHDA judge; however, I can appreciate the fact that the Griffon Alliance is putting forth some effort to make it more objectively measured, which I think is the spirit of the requirement.
Last edited by JTracyII on Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:06 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:Defining and testing for the best temperament in a dog is like trying to decide the perfect personality in a woman. Everybody wants something a little different. What we all want IMHO is a stable dog that we can trust. Beyond that I've heard a ton of variation. The pro trainers like tough, hard dogs that can take the serious pressure of getting things done fast. They don't have time to coddle a soft dog. Many people like the soft dog that all they have to do is give them a dirty look and the dog comes to their feet begging for forgiveness. Lots of owners don't have the temperament themselves to get a really hard dog's attention. So judging temperament is like judging search by the dogs range, some judges tend to punish big runners(cooperation) and some judges tend to punish close workers(desire). 'Ideal' is in the eye of the beholder.


That's right! But we can all agree we don't want a woman that bites... well... nevermind!
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:30 pm

What it boils down to is that temperament is a personal choice of what works for a person and has no business on the block to be judged by people that may have totally different thought on what constitutes the ideal.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:07 pm

hicntry wrote:What it boils down to is that temperament is a personal choice of what works for a person and has no business on the block to be judged by people that may have totally different thought on what constitutes the ideal.


Certain aspects of hunting traits can also be personal choice... Just food for thought is all.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:51 pm

Now there you are BP. Right there is the biggest problem with alliances. You put it in black and white. It is a lot like new breeders having a mentor. Mentors will have you producing the same dogs they produce. The beauty in breeding is that each breeder tends to stray one way or another from what a group will ever do. Groups are much like weak dogs that need to follow because it is safer than leading. Breeds need the variety and the good ones will go on to see another day. The bad ones will be kicked to the curb. The two main reasons for groups is money or weakness in my opinion. Breeders of solid dogs are going backwards by being connected to a group. Their names and their dogs do everything for the group, but, a group alliance does nothing for them.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:02 am

Speaking of testing temperaments, the discussion going on about Bailey and shock collars brings up a few questions. How does one judge a dogs co-operation when a shock collar was required to make the dog co-operative in the first place?
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