New To The Griff World

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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby blue04 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:29 am

hicntry wrote:Speaking of testing temperaments, the discussion going on about Bailey and shock collars brings up a few questions. How does one judge a dogs co-operation when a shock collar was required to make the dog co-operative in the first place?


There are many variations on the scale of "how cooperative is this dog"? But I know that a truly uncooperative can't be shocked into being cooperative. I've seen owners/trainer try to make a knuckle headed dog cooperate by use of force and it never yields desirable results. Usually they end up ruining the dog. You can make a dog comply by using pressure (ear pinch, e-collar, etc.) but you can't make it truly cooperative using those methods. Anyone that has the experience and credentials to be judging dogs should be able to tell the difference between a dog that's cooperative and a dog that has been pressured into submission.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby orhunter » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:08 pm

"Pressured into submision." A well respected breeder/trainer uses this method. I've seen it fail too, same famous trainer.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby gwp4me2 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:12 pm

An ecollar is a tool that can be very useful most of the time. It can be a great shortcut. Not all shortcuts are bad. Some dogs just dont get them though. I know first hand.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:56 am

I think anyone who posts as though there is one way and only one way to train a dog reveals they have not worked with very many dogs. Likely they can only train a certain type of dog and will run into problems when that varies.

Temperament was brought up in this thread. It could be argued Temperament is the number one thing a dog needs to get right in order to excel. Many other critical skills as well of course but I think Temperament is number one. To the extent someone agreed with that, they would then look for a breeder and or a breeder alliance which ensures that is a key criteria in determining whether to breed a dog or not. Obviously a physical exam lasting a couple of minutes at a test is not going to determine it.

Ultimately a person has to evaluate a Breeder and their dogs. No written set of rules or test scores is going to tell you what you need to know. At best they are useful information, at worst they are a gate to breeding a dog which should not be bred. I have to see a dog run the test or get a first hand account from someone I trust to garner useful information from a test score. Litters of puppies with high NA scores at a young age can certainly be useful information as it is harder to fake it across a whole litter at a young age.

I asked an open ended question about the much lower bar for breeding a bitch vs a stud. My hope is that persons do not falsely think a Stud matters more in the breeding than the bitch. I think it is the other way around. I watched many litters of mediocre coonhounds bred from average or less bitches bred to the latest highly promoted Grand Nite Champion stud dog. It is not the path to an above average litter across the board, nor raising the bar in a breed.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:58 am

Great points AG.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:14 am

JT, they are not great points because AG doesn't really know where the next great litter will come from. These are his opinions ....that are based on what he has seen. I am the one that mentioned raising the bar on the males.....only to suggest that , to be believable, people have to throw something out there that would suggest they are thinking of really doing a bit more than testing so they can breed the average to the average. Several already suggested it was a scheme to sell pups. As far as females carrying the weight.....I seriously doubt it. Depends on a lot of variable such as the way the dogs are bred Todays breeding style is more like playing the lottery because most breedings are to paper tigers with different genes. Regardless of all that, NOBODY can predetermine what two dogs are going to throw until they throw it.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby JTracyII » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:22 am

hicntry wrote: people have to throw something out there that would suggest they are thinking of really doing a bit more than testing so they can breed the average to the average.


Good thing it appears several breeders in NAPPA (can't speak as much to the other alliances) view the requirements as minimum requirements and not maximum.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:33 pm

HiCntry,

I was not commenting on your post regarding Studs. I read the link that started this thread where it sets a higher minimum bar for the Studs than the Bitches.

A lifetime of following many types and breeds of hunting dogs has consistently shown me the Breeders putting equal or greater efforts into their bitches are the ones that produce the best dogs.

The minimum standards put forward in this and other Alliances does not mean that is how each Breeder approaches it. But they wrote it, not me and it could have been written/set differently.

The most consistent and large numbers Breed of Vdogs currently is the DDs in my opinion. The standards for breeding certification are the same for both Stud and Bitch. Perhaps that is further evidence of the best approach.

I believe it is each specific Breeder's objectives, integrity and honesty that drive the outcome. But the thread is about an alliance including their established criteria, hence my comments.
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Re: New To The Griff World

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:43 pm

Fair enough Ag. I wasn't aware that the bar was set higher for the males in the original link. I remembered something about same minimum for both. In my breedings, I put little weight on the females, but, then again, the males were pretty prepotent since the gene pool was so narrowed. BUT, because of the line breeding, all the females had the same genetics as the males so who is to say one contributed more to the litter.
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