Closer working dogs?

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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:04 am

orhunter wrote:GWP. You're not seeing the good ones. My little girl never did anything at a trot. She was one of those, now where the hell did she go, dogs. As athletic as any of the other breeds known as big runners. Her range limit was around 300 yards, depending on where we were hunting. The dog I brought out from Wisconsin was the same, I wonder who's dog that is over there, type dogs.


Harvey, you said yourself that you had to go as far as Wisconsin to get a good dog, which means that there were no good ones in the western half of the US. You got to make up your mind. GWP may have well seen what is out there.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby oldtimer » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:43 am

Crazy talk. Trotting? This is like saying the world is flat. Total nonsense and ignorance to a breed.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:07 pm

Hicntry: Not as simple as that and times have changed. There may very well have been some decent dogs (I doubt it) but they weren't (still aren't) getting exposure to those who had the opportunity to evaluate them at tests so they remain(ed), undiscovered. The dogs GWP described were indeed what I was seeing at local tests with the exception of a very few that came from somewhere else. Aldersedge comes to mind. There are dogs all across the continent being produced with unremarkable pedigrees so it is not exclusive to the west. I wouldn't trust a dog/breeder that comes from a non-hunting area, which makes up a large portion of the lower 48, unless they came with a recommendation from someone I trust to give them a fair evaluation. When it comes to the Griff, hunters who live in the best hunting areas, produce the best hunting dogs. To buy from locations other than this is pretty risky. I live in such an area so I went elsewhere. Elsewhere turned out to be this website. The door opened simply because I asked.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby bhennessy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:45 pm

orhunter wrote:A properly bred WPG is anything but, short range.


Not sure I follow this Orhunter. Wasn't Korthals intent for the breed to be a close working dog for the walking hunter? That would imply that big running Griffs have been purposely bred away from the original standard? Or, are you simply saying that a well bred Griff should be smart enough to run as big or close as it needs to, depending on conditions?
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:34 pm

Bhennessy: Korthals grew up and did his work in an entirely different time, but what he built so long ago, is the same as we have today. The Griff is still (in the right hands) a foot hunters breed and as you say, as big or close as it needs to be. Korthals built an adaptable dog. He didn't necessarily know it but good stuff happens when we breed the right stuff.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby JTracyII » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:23 pm

I do not own a griff, but my buddy Klocke has one. We train and hunt together with a group of other guys (who own PP's, GWP's, etc). I have to say that his griff sometimes disappears over the hill as well. He has a GPS for her just in case she disappears. Don't get me wrong she is cooperative, but she has a lot of desire to find birds. We hunt bob's so a dog that ranges a bit is an asset. She is a 200 yard dog and hunts hard every second she is on the ground. She finds as many birds as the rest of our dogs. He has had two litters with his dog and the reports from owners and testing in NAVHDA among the pups has been very favorable. We live in OK and hunt wild birds (a lot of quail, some pheasants, and dove as well as quite a bit of ducks). She also has a very good, tight, flat lying coat that was judged harsh. He earned a UT prize 2 with her this past season. I've hunted with a few other decent griffs around here too. There are definitely some that will get out there and hunt available. One has to look around and ask people in the know to find them.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby gwp4me2 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:48 pm

orhunter wrote:Hicntry: Not as simple as that and times have changed. There may very well have been some decent dogs (I doubt it) but they weren't (still aren't) getting exposure to those who had the opportunity to evaluate them at tests so they remain(ed), undiscovered. The dogs GWP described were indeed what I was seeing at local tests with the exception of a very few that came from somewhere else. Aldersedge comes to mind. There are dogs all across the continent being produced with unremarkable pedigrees so it is not exclusive to the west. I wouldn't trust a dog/breeder that comes from a non-hunting area, which makes up a large portion of the lower 48, unless they came with a recommendation from someone I trust to give them a fair evaluation. When it comes to the Griff, hunters who live in the best hunting areas, produce the best hunting dogs. To buy from locations other than this is pretty risky. I live in such an area so I went elsewhere. Elsewhere turned out to be this website. The door opened simply because I asked.

Therein lies the challenge for someone new to v-dogs and especially a breed like the WPG. There are 8-10 litters listed in the local classifieds. All 'great hunters'. The cynic in me says most of the litters are from people who paid a lot for their dog and want to make some money. They are AKC registered and NAVHDA 'tested'. I've been the gunner at NAVHDA tests and seen griffs that it was 10 minutes in the field before the dog got out far enough that we dared shoot the gun sensitivity shots. Of course those were the worst but few had what I would call an animated search. I think part of the problem is that so many casual hunters actually like a dog that stays close and doesn't move too fast. Even living in the west (Utah) most upland hunters do very little. They will hit the opener and maybe another weekend for pheasants and maybe a trip or 2 up the mountain for forest grouse. Chukars require travel and hard work. You have to draw a tag for sage grouse. Sharps are also on a draw and far away, etc. I think it is MUCH easier to find a closer working WPG than one with some fire in it's belly as opposed to say a GSP where the challenge would be to find one with less run.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby deerhost » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:03 pm

Take a look at some of the French Brittany lines. I have two American Brittany and reacantly got a French Britt and there is a world of deference in the two breeds that I see. They hunt much closer, easier to hand my French Britt has a huge nose and easy to train. My French Britt is still a little high strung but she is only a year old. But when she gets out she will run circles at Mach speed but once she has burned off that energy she will come and sit down next to me at the fire pit if I'm not hunting. My American britts look like they have been shot out of a canon whe I let them out of the kennel and they just keep going no stop to them. They are great bird dogs but it takes much more work to keep them close. Just my opinion.
Last edited by deerhost on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby oldtimer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:29 am

Great post DH. Totally agree. I have owned many American Brittanys and hunted with 3 different Frenchies. Love them all, but Euro dogs just seem to understand what you want done. Now, I do not hunt rock parrots, chuks, but I bet that my DD and PP would "adjust" and figure out the optimum plan for most birds in their mouths. I believe FTs have influenced our breeding in America with many positives, but also some negatives. The importance of run is over valued in FTs. AA ones.

How many people hunt 1000s of acres on Horse Back? Few. I have been lucky enough to get to do it quite a lot in my life. I love it!! Unfortunately, most folks do not hunt that way. Yet, those bloodlines proliferate most of the bird dogs in America. Everyone likes to be able to spout off about champions in a pedigree. The Euro dogs seem to understand that I am walking a waterway, and that a bird in wheat stubble 300 yards to my right or left really does not interest me. Not saying that isn't great that they find some birds, just that I have my own path I am on. I want my dogs to find birds where I WANT THEM FOUND! Not 300 yards on a neighbor's ground.

I have had FT bred dogs for years and years. I have had many that were phenomenal, and I loved, and miss terribly, but I was younger with more spunk and leg. The Euro dogs seem to just hunt for the modern day foothunter in America.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby deerhost » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:02 pm

Old timer, well said!
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:00 pm

I have found a French Brittany breeder in the Phoenix area. Eager to hear back from him.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby bp17oang » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:51 am

bhennessy wrote:
orhunter wrote:A properly bred WPG is anything but, short range.


Not sure I follow this Orhunter. Wasn't Korthals intent for the breed to be a close working dog for the walking hunter? That would imply that big running Griffs have been purposely bred away from the original standard? Or, are you simply saying that a well bred Griff should be smart enough to run as big or close as it needs to, depending on conditions?


Actually, Korthals' intent was to create a dog to compete with ranging German dogs and English pointers in field trials (and was successful in doing so). My experience is that Griffs will adapt to about any range that suits the situation. The reason, in my opinion, that many consider them closer working now is because a lot of people want them to work close so they will train them accordingly. It's not that Griffs are close per se, it's that they can rather easily be trained to be.

As for the heat, mine is heat sensitive as well. I am very mindful of heat, humidity, and time working in the summer.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby gwp4me2 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm

I'm resurrecting this thread to state that at a test yesterday there was a young Griff running UPT that actually had a pretty decent motor. He ran pretty well in the field and also attacked the water pretty well once he went. So I will admit my prejudice is partially misplaced. (kind of crazy that it took a rock for him to cross and then he tore it up.) I don't know the breeding but I'm sure you can find it when scores are posted on NAVHDA. Treasure Valley Idaho chapter and he ran yesterday, 9/10.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby orhunter » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am

Like any of the continentals, the WPG has been Americanized/moderinized to fit our needs. Korthals would find these dogs to be exactly what he wanted, adaptable. Provided they aren't the product of cross breeding, which many are but we can't blame that on the Americans. Think of North American hunters/breeders as being victims, not purpotrators of the cross breeding. Things are just what they are and we need to do the best with what we've got. Can't undo the past.

4me2: Wish I'd have been there. I get hung up on salmon fishing this time of year so dog activities take a back seat. Guess I need to make some adjustments?
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby Expert » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:57 pm

Griffons and Labs can easily be trained to be close working dogs. Some of the more high strung dogs may be more of a challenge for someone at your age but it can be done with a little persistence.
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