Closer working dogs?

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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:09 am

Showing my ignorance here but assume EP is English pointer. Cousin has a German shorthair and that dog is just too big and rowdy for my taste. Being a single, retired guy with a house in town and fenced yard, I have to weigh these factors as well for the 9 months of the year that quail season is closed.
I only recently became aware of French Brittanies. If from a good breeder, one of these smaller guys might be just the ticket for my needs. Anyone here seen a French Brit work?

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/breed-p ... -brittany/
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby oldtimer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:52 am

Just saying that FT placement is not hunting.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby bhennessy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:32 am

Strictly speaking, if you want a closer working dog that hunts cooperatively, a griff would be a great choice. It can't be a coincidence that the breed was invented for the walking hunter and mine is a 75 yd dog in open cover and a 10 yd dog in the super dense woodcock cover here in Louisiana. He's young (2.5 yrs) and he's pushed further out each season, but I don't think he'll ever exceed 100 yds.

Excellent points that so much depends on your hunting style, terrain, specific dog, training, etc. I suppose too that much depends on if you will still cover lots of ground, just more slowly, or do you simply hunt less acreage in a day now as well. If the first, then a big running (and very steady) dog would be fine I suppose. But if the latter, a griff should be perfect.

I've also got a 13 week griff pup from Stonyridge and I'm excited to see how his range and style develop. He his already casting further out on our long walks than my older dog was at 13 weeks, but I can't fathom that he'll hunt out of sight either.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:52 pm

Not at all knocking the WPG breed but their relative inability to handle heat as well as some other breeds with different conformation and coats, would have me looking for a different breed for hunting quail in NM.

OT - Walking Grouse trials are run on wild Ruffed Grouse. The point I was making is if a dog is hunting for birds vs just running it will adapt to different birds in different terrain pretty well with a little experience. If instead the dog is simply compelled to run, as some are, they will likely not adapt very well. I have seen both types.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:11 pm

Average Guy, my friend Orhunter told me his WPG is temp sensitive, and that temps above 40 are problematical, with the ideal closer to 15. Not the scenario I expect in south central New Mexico.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby hicntry » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Maybe if you actually want to hunt the wooly dogs you would get more mileage out of them if you clipped them for the hunting season.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby bhennessy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:37 pm

I missed the part about New Mexico in the original post.

I get my Griff heavily stripped twice per year and we don't do any extended work outside in the summer unless I can wet him down regularly. Fortunately water is something we've got lots of down here so we aren't that limited in our training and exercise...maybe not so true for NM?
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby STait » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:47 am

I think conditioning in the heat is great for expending a dogs heat range. Strip them down every month and work them hard in the heat. Even pointers have to be conditioned to run in the heat. Much of it is just getting weight off which happens automatically when the calories are being burned.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby carramrod » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:02 am

STait wrote:I think conditioning in the heat is great for expending a dogs heat range. Strip them down every month and work them hard in the heat. Even pointers have to be conditioned to run in the heat. Much of it is just getting weight off which happens automatically when the calories are being burned.


I think that's more in line. Stripping/clipping is a good start, but conditioning them to work in the heat is definitely a must. My guy is about as stripped down as he can be, and a light run in the morning you'd think he was running at 3 in the afternoon. I hate hunting in weather above 40 for my sake and his.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby orhunter » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:52 am

Dogs don't pant because they're short on oxygen, they do it because they're warm. A dog running the rimrock on a Chukar hunt or busting through CRP, produces a lot of heat. We look at our dogs with their tongues hanging out and think, dang, he's really working his butt off but in fact, they are not. When the balance is found where the amount of heat produced is the same as heat removed, our dogs barely breathe at all despite the amount of actual work being done. When it's warm, dogs spend as many calories trying to keep cool as they do running around. I think the most demanding conditions I've hunted my dog, is in heavy fog at 30 degrees. Everything is covered in hoar frost and she'd get soaking wet. After a short break, she'd be shivering and we'd need to get going right away to keep her body temperature up. If it were colder, she could keep dry or just get covered in ice and she'd keep a lot warmer.

One thing about hunting warm weather... It takes more than keeping a dog hydrated to keep it from overheating. Lots of folks continually try to force water into their dogs when they are just fine. What they don't do is take the extra step to provide artificial sweat by periodically wetting down the dog. Not talking about dumping some water on the dog and having it all run off. Water on the ground is wasted water. I carry a small towel in a ziplock bag that I keep soaking wet so it can be rubbed in the dog's arm pits, belly, ear flaps, head, to create artificial sweat. I don't waste a drop of water, it all goes on the dog.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby mahlon » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:44 am

I agree with 3ds on looking for a draft that is high on co operation and maybe short on search I am about where you are in life and did exactly that. I bought a pup out of a female that was 10 or better on everything but search which was a seven. I put m
y dog through the vjp and he scored the same. He hunts 50 to 75 yards and often trots. He will never be the top scorer but he is exactly what I wanted.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby Bill in Oregon » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:25 pm

Harvey, the wet towel in the Ziploc is a great idea. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:49 pm

STait wrote:I think conditioning in the heat is great for expending a dogs heat range. Strip them down every month and work them hard in the heat. Even pointers have to be conditioned to run in the heat. Much of it is just getting weight off which happens automatically when the calories are being burned.


Yes Conditioning is always critical and it makes a big difference. But my GWP's undercoat exceeds anything I have seen on an EP, even in the summer, and his black coloration soaks up the heat. There are differences between breeds that conditioning will not erase.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I absolutely do not see the logic in a boot polishing dog for quail hunting just because the owner is now slower. A dog which will hunt out effectively, find and point birds is always an advantage assuming you want to hunt quail vs just take a walk outdoors. The argument for a boot polisher has it backwards. A dog which is underfoot and does not hunt out and cover ground will force the hunter/owner to walk a lot more to find the same number of birds and sport on any given outing is what happens.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby ryanr » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:09 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Showing my ignorance here but assume EP is English pointer. Cousin has a German shorthair and that dog is just too big and rowdy for my taste. Being a single, retired guy with a house in town and fenced yard, I have to weigh these factors as well for the 9 months of the year that quail season is closed.
I only recently became aware of French Brittanies. If from a good breeder, one of these smaller guys might be just the ticket for my needs. Anyone here seen a French Brit work?

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/breed-p ... -brittany/


We have 2 French Brittanies in my NAVHDA chapter and there were 2 in my previous chapter. Excellent little hunters. Little speed demons but they stayed within 100yards. For NM I would probably stay away from the bigger wirehaired breeds. Why not consider a Braque Francais (French Pointer)? I've hunted and worked with several of them. They are a good deal smaller than the average German Shorthair and seem to have a tendency to work closer- they're not boot polishers but they aren't running way out there just to run. They take well to a softer training approach as well. Quiet house dogs too. They might be ideal for what you're looking for in a dog.
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Re: Closer working dogs?

Postby roosterbrews » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:37 pm

Both of my Slovakian Rough Haired Pointers are closer workers with a little less rocket than the pudelpointer I have. They are from Sudden Valley Kennels look them up on Face book Jeff House is the owner
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