Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:25 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:Not everyone is doing as you say. Sure...some are, but that type of behavior happens whether it's dogs or anything else. The breeding regulations from VDD allow it, so it's not something that can be entirely controlled.

You ask if folks are looking for a hunting dog or a breedable dog? Why can't it be both? Why can't we strive to produce great hunting dogs and at the same time...try to make them as correct in every way as we can?

I don't think it has to be "either or."


As you stated earlier , it's a function of level of defect, number of pups produced, and % of defects in that group for "acceptability".

So, it is an either/or, depending upon how accepting or the intent of the buyer.

From a breeding aspect one should with an out cross and line breeding be able to see a trend, i.e. if his bitch throws aggression in both an out cross and a line-breeding, it's time to do something, eh. And, similarly with a stud. I'd think a serious breeder with a "plan" would do this to verify his "line".

Personally, I don't think it takes 80 pups to determine an issue. And, if a breeder and/or stud owner turns out 80, knows there's a trend (regardless of the level), and keeps on... is he/she truly trying to "improve the breed"?

As I stated, a lot of things aren't issues with me so long as they are not temperament, performance, or health related.

But, my primary intent is hunting, period.

And, only another absolutely outstanding bitch would tempt me to give up the slightest portion of a hunting season to breed, even if I only wanted a pup.

All in all a good discussion with interesting comments from both sides of the question...

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:48 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
STait wrote:
CohanseyDD wrote:You ask if folks are looking for a hunting dog or a breedable dog? Why can't it be both? Why can't we strive to produce great hunting dogs and at the same time...try to make them as correct in every way as we can?
I don't think it has to be "either or."


Exactly!!! I only have so much room in my kennel, my hunting dogs need to be breedable, and my breeders need to be hunting dogs!










It's a win/win where allegedly the most knowledgeable (i.e. true breeder) does the breeding, breeds only the BEST, and the hunters just do what they do best, HUNT.

And, the breeder isn't left breeding the dog that he kept (just because it was the one he selected at 7wks vs. the true best pup in the litter). Anyone seen that before...;)

3ds


Not always a simple solution, but I like to place what I think might be the best pups in the litter with someone that will hunt and test them to see if I should use them. Sometimes they're 2000 miles away when you need to breed to them though, that's where you lose the "simple" part;-)
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:29 pm

STait wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:
STait wrote:[
Exactly!!! I only have so much room in my kennel, my hunting dogs need to be breedable, and my breeders need to be hunting dogs!










It's a win/win where allegedly the most knowledgeable (i.e. true breeder) does the breeding, breeds only the BEST, and the hunters just do what they do best, HUNT.

And, the breeder isn't left breeding the dog that he kept (just because it was the one he selected at 7wks vs. the true best pup in the litter). Anyone seen that before...;)

3ds


Not always a simple solution, but I like to place what I think might be the best pups in the litter with someone that will hunt and test them to see if I should use them. Sometimes they're 2000 miles away when you need to breed to them though, that's where you lose the "simple" part;-)


I am told that Bob West does this with his PPs... places them with family and solid hunters, then picks/chooses the best to carry on. I am willing to believe that the greater majority of his puppy owners buy into his system, surrender their egos, and let him do the breeding.

Breeding these dogs should not be a recreation, a retirement plan, or something that takes precedence over hunting... it should be executed with a "farmer's" mentality...

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:58 pm

If I'm reading you right I agree 100%. The majority of people can't stomach the thought of dogs being considered "livestock". But, a good breeder will make the tough decisions when they need to be made to better his "stock". I take breeding my dogs very seriously, but I wouldn't even bother if I wasn't passionate about the recreational side of them. I have two in Saskatchewan right now being evaluated and can't wait to hunt over the female when I get her back in September. The male will likely be furthering his career and traveling the country until springtime.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:50 pm

I always picked the pups I was keeping at a young age before any were sold. Apparently, a lot of breeders today can't tell the good pups from the bad ones. I never placed any value on someone else's opinion as to what a good dog was because most everyone think their dog is good. Only a couple of people had breeding rights in all the years I bred....that is how you keep a lid on it....didn't matter if they passed a test or not they couldn't breed them. Never had to worry about anyone breeding the females any way because no one produced any males that weren't afraid of my females. It is really easy for folks to talk about how breeding should be done, but, there is talking and doing. Good breeders always make good hunting dogs, but good hunters don't always make good breeders.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:31 pm

hicntry wrote: Good breeders always make good hunting dogs, but good hunters don't always make good breeders.


This is a great line Don. If I'm planning on keeping a pup or two from a certain breeding I usually pick them prior to 7 weeks old. Let them develop as puppies then at 8-10 months old they'll go spend some time with a pro to get the kind of evaluation I can't give them....Horseback work. Then I hunt over them (on foot) and decide if I'm keeping them. That professional evaluation definitely has an impact on my decision. However, sometimes you just have to see what a certain match will produce so no evaluation is necessary.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:49 am

Steve, you are relying on a pro's opinion not someone that has only had 2 or 3 dogs to base his opinions on and puts his dogs on the level that most put their kids. It's like putting a high value on opinions put forth by non breeders or those that have only produced a couple of litters. Their is no real value to their opinions. People with no skin in the game just are not reliable sources of info regardless of what they think.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:21 am

This isn't directly related to the original question posed, but it's come up during the this thoughtful discussion.

Yes...these dogs should hunt first and foremost. But as a breeder...I NEED feedback on what my breedings are doing. I can't keep a puppy from every breeding. Not for the lack of desire to do so, but because I don't have the time or facility to handle it. In almost every case of me placing a pup from my own kennel or a pup out of a stud dog of mine...the feedback from the field goes something like, "This is the best hunting dog I've ever owned!" Is this because it truly is the best dog in the field or the guy's perspective of hunting dogs is limited? Although it's great to receive this feedback...without actually seeing the dog work relative to others of it's breed...what can I take away from the feedback other than the owner is truly happy with what he has?

On the flip side...if that same guy does the same amount of hunting...but adds an established venue of testing with this dog...now I can get a little clearer picture of how this individual dog stacks up against others like it. Is the evaluation of a dog foolproof? Absolutely not. Strange things happen during testing: Judges in a foul mood, judges that haven't trained or tested a dog in 15 years, a dog that has an off day, a dog that truly doesn't have the talent the owner or breeder thinks it has, etc.

Now...at those tests...the judges take a look at the dogs for temperament, dentition, testicle faults and eyelid faults. If a bunch of dogs from a litter show up at tests...I'm going to start getting a truer picture of what's actually going on with my breeding program.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:46 am

Very good post CDD. Looks at all sides with good perspective. The old saying in pro fight circles is that" You NEVER want to leave it up to the judges!" LOL Judges, are kind of like building inspectors I suppose. Most inspectors are no more than tradesmen that didn't want to do the real work.....so they judge the work of others that they couldn't do.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:14 am

Yes, Good post CDD.

The "This is the best hunting dog I have ever seen" syndrome is rampant for sure.

I understand why a Breeder shipping puppies around the country to people they know little about would need to rely on a test system, in part, for valid feedback. I find it pretty easy to size up the person giving the feedback however, first by listening, then by asking a few questions...

I am surprised that more do not make use of video. Every digital camera has HD video capability these days and even a growing older technically challenged guy like me can post to a public account and send my Breeder a link to view it. Pretty easy to take some video of a puppy doing its thing working birds in the field, waterwork and drags ...
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:42 am

[quote="hicntry"]Steve, you are relying on a pro's opinion not someone that has only had 2 or 3 dogs to base his opinions on and puts his dogs on the level that most put their kids. It's like putting a high value on opinions put forth by non breeders or those that have only produced a couple of litters. Their is no real value to their opinions. People with no skin in the game just are not reliable sources of info regardless of what they think.[/quote]

This is partially true at best. There are lots of breeders who operate within their own kennel with absolutely no knowledge of what other breeders are doing within their breed of choice. Like I have said so many times, "breeding what they have and not the best they can get." Many of these folks have been at it a long time and some of us might label them as experts when in fact they are not. The Griff world is predominately made up this type of breeder. Some of the PP folks outside the NAPPA fit this keyhole also. I'm sure every breed has its lower echelon. At one point when I was getting ready to breed my dog, I had a team behind me to offer advice and their stud. Me and my dog would have made a fantastic litter the first time because I was willing to go outside my local area to purchase a dog in the first place (Illinois) and to find the proper stud (Wisconsin) for breeding. That's a long way from Beaverton, Oregon. Ya do what ya gotta do if you want to be taken seriously.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:03 am

" Me and my dog would have made a fantastic litter the first time because I was willing to go outside my local area to purchase a dog in the first place (Illinois) and to find the proper stud (Wisconsin) for breeding. That's a long way from Beaverton, Oregon. Ya do what ya gotta do if you want to be taken seriously."

This is the nonsense I am referring to. Thinking people are going to take someone seriously because he bought dogs from half way across the country is actually pretty funny. WHY would someone take anyone seriously for that.....Even pet owners do it every day. Needing the moral support of a group to justify breeding tells me nothing. It is all about the dogs being produced. Nothing else.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:18 am

"It's all about the dogs being produced." The best dog I could get wasn't being produced closer to my home. The best stud(s) I could find wasn't being produced any closer to home. That's could hardly be considered, "nonsense." I didn't make either decision on my own. Like I said, team effort, tons of research. Nothing random about it.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:38 am

Early on I used dogs from Tenn and KY. Later, I bought a DDR dog from NH. As you say OR, just doing what has to be done, but never figured it gave me any more credibility that getting a dog from across town. Of course I never made a big deal about it because people do it every day to get what they want. I just got two boxes of cigars out of Miami even though there is a cigar store around the corner. Doesn't make me a cigar officianado by any means. Having a dog shipped in is no different. Many people bring dogs in from Germany also....just for the perception that they are going the extra mile. It couldn't be farther from the truth because there are dogs every bit as good bred right here in the USA.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:55 pm

hicntry wrote:" It is all about the dogs being produced. Nothing else.


True statement.

Which means a first time dog owner might well buy a dog from an excellent breeder/bloodline, strike gold, breed that dog and produce an excellent litter of pups. Carrying it on from there will require quite a bit more. It happens a lot that people breed a few good litters using the bloodlines others have developed. It happens much less often that a breeder develops their own line and brings something new/improved to the table in doing it.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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