Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

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Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:16 pm

Got to thinking, and was wondering what the thought is on breeding hunting dogs.

We all know that the VDD is the greatest breed club with the most rigorous breed standards.

However, let's say there's a stud that's turning out some really nice pups that test well, have nice form/coat, excellent temperament, and field reports indicate are very good hunting dogs.

BUT, there's a trend in the dentition like poor bites or something like that.

Would you balk at a pup, because it might not be "breedable". Or, would you keep it on your "A" list, because there's an excellent chance it will be a more than adequate hunter.

Personally, I'm past the desire to want to breed anymore, because I'd rather spend time hunting my current and eventually future pups.

So, I'd be all in.

But, I'm curious at the opinions of the other hunters on this board.

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby Densa44 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:08 pm

Well the reason that the judges check the bite is that is pretty much the only genetic fault that they can see.

What the geneticists say in humans is; "Foe every one that you can see there are 3 that you can't see. I'd give it a pass.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:24 pm

Neuter and keep.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:31 pm

If everything but for the possibility of a missing tooth relative to hunting and temperament were green lights, I lean towards no hesitation to get a puppy from such a breeding. I am not a breeder.

I have never delved into the missing tooth concern. What is the practical concern around it? That one missing tooth leads to more missing teeth in the offspring? Is there an expectation that a missing tooth has a negative effect on a dog's performance in carrying game? A possible signal that other genetic flaws are more likely present?
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:31 pm

Double
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:35 pm

"We all know that the VDD is the greatest breed club with the most rigorous breed standards." ??
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:04 pm

I won't breed to a dog with a bad bite.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:46 pm

STait wrote:I won't breed to a dog with a bad bite.


You missed the point...

Maybe go back and re-read... it's about pups out of a dog that throws tooth issues... in VDD you can't breed a dog with a bad bite (because it doesn't qualify for breeding).

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby gusto » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:00 pm

Same difference and no for me
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby SMAbby » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:04 pm

I would take the pup.

As a breeder I have a "5 fatal flaws" list. A list of things that I wont breed. Hernias and bites would be below the 5 flaws. Reason being, a hernia can be repaired and a dog with a bad bite will still hunt and be a great family pet. I would be diligent in combing the lines for something that has not shown bite issues, that would match up with the pup and breed away.

I think about that with our breed and a dog not being able to breed because it doesnt have Laut. Your really going to throw all the good stuff away because of one thing? I dont agree with it. Take the dog with no laut and breed it to laut. Of coarse that is assuming that in breeding yellow and blue make green......which we know isnt true.

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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:39 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
STait wrote:I won't breed to a dog with a bad bite.


You missed the point...

Maybe go back and re-read... it's about pups out of a dog that throws tooth issues... in VDD you can't breed a dog with a bad bite (because it doesn't qualify for breeding).

3ds


It's all the same to me. I only have so much room in my kennel and won't have or keep one that should be nurtured because I want dogs I can use for breeding. Hunting qualities come first, but I already have those qualities in my dogs so no reason to keep one with skeletal flaws, or hernias for that matter.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:07 pm

Well, not from a hunters standpoint, but a breeders. Dogs with missing teeth haven't been considered breedable since the VDD started. It hasn't made any difference at all as far as eliminating the problem. I would say taking a chance on pups from a line that may produce pups with missing teeth is a no brainer if the pups are driven. They will make fantastic GWP's if nothing else.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby gwp4me2 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:22 pm

What percentage of pups out of a good breeding do you feel like should be bred? One of the problems with a breeding group like the VDD is that many people think that any dog that qualifies should be bred. There are some that are improving their lines but a whole new crop who think if they pass a test they have a great specimen. The minimum standard isn't that impressive. Even pups out of an excellent breeding only give you a 'better chance' of a great dog. Now it is a slippery slope when we start ignoring genetic problems but not all genetic problems are created equal. Even among bad bites there is a big difference between a missing p1 and severely undershot. We know there are no perfect dogs so that means that every breeding is a compromise. So if I want a hunting puppy my first priority is hunting talent and desire. Next conformation to allow it to do its job. Health, and on and on until you get down to trivial things. If I'm never breeding I'm going to neuter anyway. I've got a better idea for improving breeds. You can't breed a litter until you've successfully put 4 or 5 dogs through the highest levels of testing. Then you would hopefully have learned enough to recognize what the best dogs look like instead of a newbie breeding 'the best dog we've ever seen'.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby orhunter » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:11 am

Some bite problems correct themselves as pups develop. Missing teeth wouldn't disqualify a pup that will eventually be nothing more than a great hunting dog. A defect that will need surgical correction or pulling, might still be acceptable if the breeder foots part of the bill.
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Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby ryanr » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:48 am

IMO, most puppy buyers have no business breeding so if they're only looking for an excellent hunting prospect it'd be foolish to discount a pup because of a minor dentition flaw. But many people hear flaw and automatically won't consider it as if the dog's a dud or something, a big part of that I think can be ego.

BTW, my dog (a registered DD) has a butt bite and the truth is the average puppy buyer wouldook at his teeth and think his bite & teeth "look just fine to me." He's neutered but that wasn't the main reason I neutered him and removed him from breeding potential (as a GWP). He's an excellent hunter and overall is a friendly dog but he's VERY possessive (most especially with fur) and a bit hardheaded and stubborn. Those were the reasons, particularly the possessiveness, that I neutered him.
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