Study on coat type. WPG application

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Mon May 22, 2017 8:33 pm

"laugh or cry?" Do both. Either one works. No one will judge you on your choice....
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Mon May 22, 2017 9:01 pm

Harvey, been laughing since it was mentioned. I am now in the illustrious company of a breeder of paper tigers and another that directs all new breeders to a mentor because the mentors have, how did you put it, apparently not gotten the consistency of field work they need after all these years.....so let's learn from them. Still laughing son.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Tue May 23, 2017 6:42 am

hicntry wrote:"Damn it, Hicntry...!!! That's twice now in a row I agree with you...Either your getting smarter or I'm going the other way :lol: :lol:

You are correct in your comments."

Wow Gman. I am honored that you and Harvey have, possibly, elevated me to your status of knowledge of breeding. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. LOL



CRY- LAUGH do what ever floats your boat !!! I could care less !!
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Wed May 24, 2017 10:06 pm

Obviously, you guys didn't read the study. Please go to the data set at the bottom of the study and download the data set.

The implications of this study are simple. There are six genes that can express in seven coat variations. By testing the parents, within 1 to 2 generations you can change the phenotype of the offspring. Within 2 to 3 generations you can change the genotype. That is the math, and short of the geneticists finding a 4th location it is repeatable and predictable.

The genes are represented as follows:

COAT LENGTH (FGF5)

S/S - Dog has short hair. Long-haired offspring cannot be produced

S/L - Dog has short hair and carries long hair gene

L/L - Dog has long hair



CURL (KRT71)

N/N - Dog has straight coat

N/C - Dog has wavy coat

C/C - Dog has curly coat



FURNISHINGS (RSPO2)

N/N - Dog does not have furnishings

N/F - Dog has furnishings and carries 1 copy of the non-furnishing gene

F/F - Dog has furnishings. All offspring will have furnishings

Lets take the inconsistency in pudelpointers mentioned by hlcountry. This is entirely explained by looking at the genetics of pointers and standard poodles.

Pointers are:
(FGF5) S/S, (RSPO2 )N/N , (KRT71 ) N/N

Using the same order a standard poodle is

L/L, F/F, C/C

While we don't have a pudelpointer profile. We do have GWP profile. Most are as follows:

S/S, F/F, N/N

A few are

S/S, N/F, N/N.

The occasional fluffy GWP would come from either the recessive L at FGF5 and the recessive N/N at KRT71 . The reason that they just show up is that they are recessive genes. Virtually impossible to totally cull without genetic testing. With genetic testing, completely able to cull. HLCountry has it completely backwards. I have read virtually of of his posts on the issue and we no longer need to linebreed or inbreed to get these genes.

So what does this mean for Griff's where we don't have a profile? We can already infer a lot.

First, the prized undercoat is most likely a S/S. The wirehair and furnishings comes from a F/F or an F/N.

We can also learn something from on of the First Korthals breeding. The Janus and mouche breeding. Janus was a Barbet. While no breed profile exists for this breed, their coats very much look like a standard poodle and are a clear C/C. Since a curl is rerecessive it would have had to have been a C/C curl. The pup Hurzaar would have been a N/C dog. Hurzaar was know to have a better coat. It would have been a wirehair coat with wave in it. He was bred many times. The Curl would have entered the population here as a wave. In genetic terms this is a partial masking. The gene isn't totally recessive. Since curly was against all the breed standards and culling was common. It is reasonable to assume that this gene became less prominent, but was never eliminated Because if he was bred to an N/N dog the pups would have been 75%N/N and 25% N/C. A C/C should not have been allowed to breed. In Joan Bailey's book. I see no C/C dogs in the pictures up through the 1930's

Next lets look at then RSPO2. This is the gene that produces wirehair and furnishings. The wirehair is dominant and easily expresses itself. GSP are F/F. GWP are mostly F/F with a few F/N. Griff's would be mostly F/F. However one of the early dogs used by Korthals was half GSP named Janon. This dog explains the occasional griff with slick coat.

Finally is the F5G5. This is the hair length gene. Since it can express with the wirehair gene. It would be responsible for the undercoat. All shorthaired pointers and GWP tested for the study Tested as S/S in this location. This location is a mystery for Griff's. Although I would bet Griffman that dog #2 is S/S. This is probably the location that is really producing fluffy. One of the charges is that Griff's were outbred to a setter or spaniel. They all have L/L at this location. The L gene is recessive and does appear to be totally masked. This gene would be very hard to breed out. This is why we need a few people to submit samples. It would not be hard to create a breed profile.

What you do with it is up to you. Griffons are hard not because there is this enormous amount of genes. According to this info all coat types come down to these six genes expressing themselves 7 ways. Griffons are more difficult because all six genes would be in the population. The only way to know what those genes are is test. We can now know that and test. What a great opportunity.

Oh and a breed is a closed system.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby AverageGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 7:27 am

Nice post Meridiandave. Best of luck with your efforts.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Thu May 25, 2017 9:27 am

Dave: When it comes to coat, my dog is certainly an anomaly. She has no underfur like a GSP, ticked like a GSP. Her coat doesn't go dormant like a WPG's should, it just keeps growing, I have to clip it. The older she gets, the faster it seems to grow. She pretty much looks like Griffman's No. 2 but longer coat and more furnishings but after I clip her, she's all GSP except for the bushy head. When her coat is long, the ticking doesn't show much. If her DNA were examined I bet it'd be a disaster.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Thu May 25, 2017 9:38 am

I wish you the best of luck Dave. As far as me having it all backwards, well, I have already produced clones all with the same coats etc. and controlled what the rest of the dog was at the same time.....by myself. What you are claiming, you have yet to do AND involves way too many people to be dependable. You might want to try doing it before you get to carried away. I really doubt that there are many real breeders of working dogs that lay awake at night worrying about the coat. That is a show breeder thing.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Thu May 25, 2017 10:17 am

" By testing the parents, within 1 to 2 generations you can change the phenotype of the offspring. Within 2 to 3 generations you can change the genotype."

Dave, help me out here. You are guessing at what you may, or may not be able to do within 2 or 3 generations doing it your way. When you speak of 2 or 3 GENERATIONS, you are saying there is some inbreeding and linebreeding going on......so which is it?
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Thu May 25, 2017 10:18 am

I'm kinda thinking there's a missing gene somewhere as it concerns coat length. Something between slick and long.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby STait » Thu May 25, 2017 1:53 pm

hicntry wrote:" By testing the parents, within 1 to 2 generations you can change the phenotype of the offspring. Within 2 to 3 generations you can change the genotype."

Dave, help me out here. You are guessing at what you may, or may not be able to do within 2 or 3 generations doing it your way. When you speak of 2 or 3 GENERATIONS, you are saying there is some inbreeding and linebreeding going on......so which is it?


Kinda what I was thinking. What about all the other traits that you're trying to keep?? No line breeding??
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:01 pm

Saw maybe a half dozen+ Hun Hill dogs over the weekend and wearing some excellent coats. Gorgeous is the best description I can give. Then there's Baby Huey. What a character. Love that dog but he'd probably drive me nuts.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:29 pm

Were they all Frank's dogs or George's as well? I believe George's dogs are from Mr. Brown. Upon seeing George's dogs at training, my friend and I immediately said, those are great Griffs. My friend is a pudelpointer guy. George's, Frank's and my dog (he hunts with her) have helped him change his view of Griff's.

I told you. Frank is producing some great dogs, but he is more than that, he helps all kinds of people out. I think the world of that guy. I don't know George very well yet, but everyone says he is a nice dude.

I hope to get one or two of them on board with this and I have texted Frank about it. I want to talk to them face to face about it.

BTW it looks like the AWPGA database people are willing to help us with the database.

Sorry I missed you. That day was bad for me. I look forward to seeing you at some testing and training soon.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:22 pm

I was curious a while back and looked to see what George was doing because lots of folks want local dogs. Hadn't heard from him in quite sometime. I saw he was using Mr. Brown and quickly lost interest. I want everyone to be aware my only concern with Mr. Brown is his size and his lack of performance at the Invitational. Was not impressed in the slightest, quite the opposite. Disappointed is a good term to use. His earning the coveted VC was quite a shock.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby bhennessy » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:58 pm

So I'm thumbing through my copy of the Training and care of the Versatile Hunting dog and see several pictures of very big and very wooly Griffs. Given that this book was published in '74 and there were probably very, very few Griffs in the states at that time, did the conformation focus change at some point to smaller dogs with tighter coats? I guess what I'm saying are aspects of conformation a moving target over decades?
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:31 pm

I think it is just the opposite. I have a book that has 31 pictures of early griffs before 1950. Every single on is a tight or medium coat. Not a single griff is fluffy. The first fluffy Griffs start showing up in the pictures in the late 1940's and 1950's.

Orhunter, I get it. I just have seen George's dogs and some of their progeny. The are thinner and can move. I think their body lines are great.
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