Study on coat type. WPG application

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Tom in WI » Sat May 20, 2017 9:20 pm

I have a griff with a woolier coat. When I was looking for a dog the breeder said this one had a good nose and so that's the dog I chose. Time has proven the breeder right. A duck drag is nothing but a quick romp. I can always tell when a bear is nearby, even with the house closed up tight, as she's bristled up and growling. I don't have any qualms about going in a field after half a dozen guys and 3-4 dogs went through it already as she'll find the birds they missed. I can set out birds, but she just follows my scent to the plant. In a perfect world she'd have a better coat, but I wouldn't trade it for that nose.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Sun May 21, 2017 1:19 pm

orhunter wrote:What we do? All we can do is try to educate hunters and let them know there are alternatives to "off the rack" dogs. Some listen, most don't. I also try to educate folks on how to find a breeder by weeding out the 200. I have no idea how effective I've been because most the time I never hear back from the person. I know it's a tough pill to swallow because we love our Griffs so much but the best thing is to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad. We want all our Griffs to be good but we need to find peace in knowing we're trying and that's about it. Educating people who won't listen is beating a dead horse.


Orhunter...Geneticists talk about the 50, 500 rule. That is that their should be at least 50 dogs to start a population and a breeding population should be at least 500 individuals. With so many super stud males they are beginning to adjust that number up to 100-1000. So in an ideal world we would have 1000 breeding dogs. All of them tested and hunters. For the health of the breed we should have as many tested dogs as possible from as many lines as possible.

On the flip side think of those dogs you don't like as a gene bank. There is a reason gene banks are kept for every variety of crop in the world. We should be thankful that ours is growing. I heare a similar message to this all the time: "those dogs have lousy genetics. They're not tested." Testing is merely a selection pressure on the genetics. It does not create the genetics. The genes have to be there in the first place for the selection pressure to act on them. So part of my thing about the 200 breeders is don't sweat it. Showing a dog is likewise a selection pressure. What I am trying to do is create a baseline on coat. So we know beforehand what genetics are there before the dogs are bred.

Also everybody has different preferences when it comes to dogs and those preferences. We shouldnt be hammering those folks who are testing dogs even if those dogs don't fit my model of dogs. I like Griffs with shorter coats or the coats that seem to be consistent with the breed. As the poster above says, his dog has a long coat, he loves it. Good for him. I have friends that show and hunt. I am not a fan of their coats, but their dogs are titled to the hilt. The progeny of those dogs are titled to the hilt. They are completely and totally responsible breeders. Yet their dogs have weaknesses on upland but they are very good in the water. They are very well trained. They are in every sense of the word responsible breeders.

On the flip side since Frank and George have been put in charge of training there is training virtually every weekend I have gotten to see a lot of dogs. I have seen progeny of a dog you personally don't like. I have watched a bunch of those dogs test. I think everyone is a prize one and all but one is a 112. Everytime I see that studs son or grandson I think man that is a great build. They are good in the water, long legged and having excellent search and noses.

I have also gotten to know some of the breeders who are panned here in Idaho. I can say, they all love their dogs as much as the other guys do. Several have made efforts over the last few years to bring in Midwestern blood into their gene pool. One for sure has even begun not offering breeding rights. I am certain there are at least 5 breeders here in Idaho that are testing their dogs.

I will never have another dog that is not tested. I am even looking at trying to get my current dog to run Utility. I think a lot of new breeders may be nervous to become involved in NAHVDA or testing. We need to make it more welcoming for them to get involved. That to me is what we can do to help out the breed.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Sun May 21, 2017 1:46 pm

What to do?

1) Restrict our breeding to field tested dogs.
2) encourage as many people new people to test their dogs as possible. Support them in their effort.
3) create a Griffon alliance.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Sun May 21, 2017 2:50 pm

Dave:

Can't say I've heard the 50/500 rule, at least not for a long time....

Testing serves several different issues, some not related to the dog.

1. A pup buyer who will not test as a requirement to purchase when a testing facility is nearby, might show less than total dedication to the dog and respect to the breeder. Or the other side, just wants a top hunting dog and the breeder may be content with this, knowing the dog is going to a great home. Testing can bring out the best in some people and maybe not so much in others. A breeder has a right to know and decide who gets a pup and who doesn't and testing is one of the tools.

2. A breeder who does not require testing, may not have confidence in their breeding program, does not want others criticizing their breeding program, may not have a breeding program or agenda and sees it as unnecessary, might be content to sell pups to anyone who rings the doorbell with cash in hand. Testing is as much about people as it is dogs.

3. May be over rated as a means of assessing the quality of a breeding program. Some testing is better than others with JGHV and VHDF offering the best venue. A NAVHDA NA-112 is so ho hum, so is a VC without seeing the dog in action. I want to know what others say about a dog through their personal experience and definitely from someone other than the owner. I want to know how the dog moves, physical structure, coat, pointing instinct, desire, hunting experience. Test scores don't reveal the important stuff but the test is still a NECESSARY part of dog ownership and breeding.

You are much closer to the action in Idaho and know a whole lot more about what's going on there than me. I have a lot to learn from you for sure. I've e-mailed a couple of your "local" breeders who's dogs I've never seen at tests to find out what their gig is and they pretty much saw testing as a conflict with their breeding program because the quality they produced was "good enough." Anyone with cash in hand and owned a nice home kind of thing. Hunting was of no concern when placing pups. Part of the 200 club.....

It would be great to spend some time with you at the test in Baker in a couple of weeks. Hope you can make it.

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Mon May 22, 2017 12:46 am

Harvey,

I don't disagree that dogs should be tested. However, it isn't an AKC requirement. All we can do is change ourselves, and get data.

I will be at the training this Saturday. I am not sure about the Baker test. I am a new handler so it is fun for me to go and learn.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon May 22, 2017 8:02 am

Meridiandave wrote:What to do?

1) Restrict our breeding to field tested dogs.
2) encourage as many people new people to test their dogs as possible. Support them in their effort.
3) create a Griffon alliance.



MD... I'm not sure what life in the west is like, but in the midwest these things are being done routinely. We see a pretty close group of breeders that work together and exchange information and ideas. Navhda testing is one of the many importants tools we use to validate breeding. As I say testing is one tool.

What gets me is people will only look at one dog and decide on whether it is worthy to breed. I look at the whole pedigree and see how the litter mates test out in both health and navhda. You can have the best tested dog but the rest of the litter may be marginal. Who has a dog can make an average dog look good.
Titles don't mean anything to me. Test scores do. Best Griffon I have ever seen was a NA no prize....went on to go UT 204 and VC but it was a natural grouse dog with a newbie owner. One of the best producing dogs in the US was BlackRiver Dallas. Dallas wasn't even NA tested. Owner had no clue about Navhda and had a chapter less than 1hr away from him.
Dallas put out 2-3 VC pups and mutiple UT prized pups. I have his sister and his other sister was a VC, so you have to dive in to the pedigree to see what is in there before you can go with or rule out a individual dog.

Harvey,
I tell everyone that calls. Whether you get one of my dogs or not. Get a pup from a Navhda registered and tested parents..... only logical in my book.


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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Mon May 22, 2017 8:08 am

So, out of curiosity, what is considered the ideal coat?
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Mon May 22, 2017 9:22 am

Dave: Griffman wrote: "We see a pretty close group of breeders that work together and exchange information and ideas." There really is an alliance of sorts (GUN) but it's restricted to a pretty small geographic location. Out west, everyone is doing it "my way," there is no cohesive effort. Most wouldn't know a great pedigree if they held it in their hand because there are no open lines of communication with others. Like I've said time after time, breeders breeding what they have and not the best they can get. They need to open their eyes and look over the fence to see what's on the other side.

Let me say one thing about the stud dog mentioned. If he didn't have that sheet of paper with VC on it, breeders wouldn't give him a second look. He's big, slow and maybe some other stuff. I love the dog for all the wrong reasons and that doesn't make him a great hunter or breeding material. My opinion needs to taken with a grain of salt because everybody wants something different in a dog. But, certain things should be unacceptable across the board and breeding dogs that are good in one area and not in another, is one of those things. They are versatiles by name and should be by nature. In a word, adaptable. Running 50/60 miles a day over the Chukar hills or sitting in a duck blind, "adaptable."

Hicntry: This isn't a one size fits all sort of thing. A dogs appearance from a distance is nothing more than eye candy or not. It should be thick enough to keep an inactive dog warm when the temperature drops. It should be flat lying so the dog dries quickly after a dunking in the duck lake. Harsh enough to protect the dog from things like barb wire fences. Put all these together and you have a coat that doesn't pick up burs and other garbage while in the field. Like I said, Griffman's No. 2 photo is the epitome of a great looking coat and dog in general. I like the silver dogs for their flatter coats.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Mon May 22, 2017 10:30 am

I know that Or. What Dave is suggesting is a breeding program of sorts based on better coats now made possible by identifying specific genetic markers. How is this even remotely possible when there is no real "Ideal" coat? Coat quality is pretty muched determined by the temperature zone and what the dog is to be used for. Kind of hard to have a breeding program heavily reliant on the ideal coat when the truly ideal coat is non existent. Has the PP alliance standardized the PP coats yet? No. The best that can ever be done is each individual breeder has his own CLOSED breeding program to produce his/her ideal from top to bottom. If each breeder did this, you will have better dogs even if they vary somewhat in coats etc.....but that is where genetic variation comes from. Each breeder is producing a known version of the breed that breeds consistent. Can't be done by mixing them up with Tom, Dick, and Harry's dogs.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby AverageGuy » Mon May 22, 2017 11:07 am

hicntry wrote: How is this even remotely possible when there is no real "Ideal" coat? Coat quality is pretty muched determined by the temperature zone and what the dog is to be used for. Kind of hard to have a breeding program heavily reliant on the ideal coat when the truly ideal coat is non existent. .


I agree with this in part. The DK thread for example asked about a DK suitable for handling heat in the south. I responded the DKs I have seen were not that. Because the DKs I have seen were bred in and for a northern climate and had nice thick skin and undercoats, were large and dark liver in color, all which would actually allow them to be used for waterfowl in the area they live and hunt in, vs just a dip at a mid summer hunt test that allow so many thin skinned/coated dogs to lay claim to waterwork credentials... There is a good reason the white thin skinned and thin coated EPs and GSPs dominate in the South.

No free lunch with dogs including their coats. Always going to be tradeoffs as to what is optimal for each task and territory. A wise buyer gets what fits their multiple needs the best.

But some coats are not good for anything hunting related and too many WPGs have one. Long, Open and Soft sucks all around. Picks up burrs and water, dog gets hot in heat but cold when wet... All downside. But the Pet People hitting the occasional NAVHDA training day seem to eat it up.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Mon May 22, 2017 12:00 pm

Griff coats are all over the map because of the number of genes involved, there is no simple solution. If we breed dogs with identical coat genes, we're on to something but what about the rest of the dog? We must judge a dog in the field first, then find a suitable mate, not the other way around. If we're strictly breeding coats, we end up going down the same path as the Chocolate Labrador went a few years back. Yea, they were brown, but that's about it. Look at the show Goldens as another example.

There is one type Griff coat that appears tougher to breed out and that's the super slick ones. It's kinda like the genes controlling that are more dominate than the others. Just a gut feeling nothing more. I think the part of the body makes a difference too. Lots of full mop heads out there and we'd expect to see body coats 6 inches long but it isn't the case. And sometimes the opposite, slick heads, nice/longer body fur. Head and body appear to operate independently. Too many genes involved. As far as PP coats. They've come a long way. We don't see quite as many slick coated dogs, many/most are a happy medium between the two extremes, right where they should be.

Average Guy: For years at tests when GSP/DK coats were judged, all I heard was the same thing, time after time, medium harsh, medium dense. One day a dog was judged, harsh, dense. Needed to inspect the dog myself to get a feel for the "perfect" coat. That dog was really something!!! Trying to find skin under that fur was a real task. I've seen one more since that day. They are few but they are out there.

With the longer coated Ugly V-dogs, achieving a cookie cutter coat isn't a good thing as folks need a choice based on geographic location and the hunting they do. If we need any kind of conformity, it's in the field work.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Mon May 22, 2017 12:23 pm

" If we need any kind of conformity, it's in the field work."

The breed was bred as a field dog to begin with. If y'all are still trying achieve conformity in field work....just how do you think your going to be successful breeding for anything else.....with or without DNA markers?
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon May 22, 2017 12:25 pm

hicntry wrote:I know that Or. What Dave is suggesting is a breeding program of sorts based on better coats now made possible by identifying specific genetic markers. How is this even remotely possible when there is no real "Ideal" coat? Coat quality is pretty muched determined by the temperature zone and what the dog is to be used for. Kind of hard to have a breeding program heavily reliant on the ideal coat when the truly ideal coat is non existent. Has the PP alliance standardized the PP coats yet? No. The best that can ever be done is each individual breeder has his own CLOSED breeding program to produce his/her ideal from top to bottom. If each breeder did this, you will have better dogs even if they vary somewhat in coats etc.....but that is where genetic variation comes from. Each breeder is producing a known version of the breed that breeds consistent. Can't be done by mixing them up with Tom, Dick, and Harry's dogs.


Damn it, Hicntry...!!! That's twice now in a row I agree with you...Either your getting smarter or I'm going the other way :lol: :lol:

You are correct in your comments.

Harvey,
There is one type Griff coat that appears tougher to breed out and that's the super slick ones.


I'd rather have a slick than the other end of the spectrum. I have no place for soft and loose ! I can live with longer as long as it is harsh and dense.
You come to a Wisconsin test and you will see about dogs from about 4-5 breeders and they mostly are similar in appearance and consistency.

Like I tell most people. Temperament ,Health, Ability and Coat are the order of characteristics that I worry about in a Griffon. Most just worry about what cute lil name they are going to call it and what trainer to send it to !!! :oops:

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Mon May 22, 2017 12:47 pm

Griff Man:

When I was there the last time the consistency was obvious. Even their temperament. Not an unfriendly dog in the lot. Every one wanted the be your/my good buddy. No fighting, growling 'cept for when the males were humping the females. Gotta give the males credit for their enthusiasm.

I gotta look to see when your test(s) are. What chapter do you suggest? Been wanting to get back there, I hate it here in the arm pit of Orygun. Any excuse to get away is a good one, even to see the likes of you.

Agreed, a slick beats a hair ball any day.

"What trainer to send it to?" Grrrrrr...... I tell folks. It's a Griff, it'll teach you how to hunt, not the other way around.

"You're getting smarter or I'm going the other way." He's not doing too bad is he? Weed is legal in Washington and Orygun now and that always increases a persons imagined IQ.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Mon May 22, 2017 7:06 pm

"Damn it, Hicntry...!!! That's twice now in a row I agree with you...Either your getting smarter or I'm going the other way :lol: :lol:

You are correct in your comments."

Wow Gman. I am honored that you and Harvey have, possibly, elevated me to your status of knowledge of breeding. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. LOL
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