Black PP

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Black PP

Postby Runningwild » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:01 pm

Where did the black pp come from? Someone told me they mixed pp with wirehairs and that's where they came any truth to that?
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Re: Black PP

Postby Calvinator » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:28 pm

Black has always been apart of the breed. the VPP keeps it at about 15% of the total population as it is the dominate color. The PP is one of the parent breeds of the DD/GWP. Meaning they came before the DD/GWP.
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Re: Black PP

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:53 am

As the myths go, black is attributed to the "pointer" influence in both the PP and DD.

I thought Steve Borin mentioned there were some recent (last 10 years or so) outcrosses of PP to EP.

Unlike the lab guys, black isn't attributed to much in the Continental breeds other than just an accepted color phase... the only issue is not being able to breed black x black in DD... not sure of PPs. I would say that our brown dogs seem to run very dark and they and the black dogs have issues with high temps and sunny days... something to be considered in the big picture.

I'm a performance guy, color means nothing to me. My pup is out of a black female, I liked a black pup, wife liked the brown pup with a blaze... brown it was!

FWIW, my experience judging PPs made me look closer at MLs on pedigrees. Some say they don't make much difference, but anecdotally the DD pups that I liked were out of the PP MLs... my pup now is PP ML both sides and the hands down best all-around DD I've had (mainly because of her temperament). She has an Outstanding temperament with dogs of ALL sizes (I don't subscribe to the BS that some mistake small dogs for vermin), LOTs of POINT, very strong natural retriever, and big search on land and water... the total package.

Quite frankly, my next and probably final hunting dog may very well be a PP, regardless of registry...

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Re: Black PP

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:43 am

N. American VPP's can and do have a higher percentage of EP in them. Some VPP dogs have really odd colors, patterns, that look nothing like the NAPPA/Czech bred dogs that retain the proper percentage of EP. Not all of them, just some.
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Re: Black PP

Postby Steve Anker » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:47 am

EP in PP........!!!!

Say it ain't so.......! :D
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Re: Black PP

Postby JTracyII » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:30 am

My reading and studying suggests that black has been a color option ever since some of the first breedings in the PP world in Germany. I found this account of the history/origin of the PP. Below is an account of where a black pudelpointer was used early in the PP's development:


"The first purposefully bred Pudelpointer throw went to Stiftsörster Walter zu Walsdorf bei Goldberg in Schlesiesen. It was out out of the black PP female “MOLLY” and the distinguished white and brown pointer “TELL.” From this breeding came “CORA vom Walsdorf” who already corresponded to Hegewald’s ideals to a large extent with the hunting background of both original breeds, and the outward appearance of a rough-haired, dry-leaf brown (dürlaub) pointer, which came from the pudel."

Molly was owned by Hegewald himself. There were one or two accidental breedings (which inspired more intentional breedings of the two) that occurred prior to this one between English Pointers and German Hunting Pudel's, but this one between Hegewald's black pudelpointer "Molly" and "Tell", the English Pointer was the first intentional breeding of the Pudelpointer.


Check out this link... http://www.pudelpointer.ca/history.html It is a good read.

I think where I first read it was on a German website translated into English so I could read it, which I believe is the same article as the one at the link provided.
Last edited by JTracyII on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black PP

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:29 am

Steve Anker wrote:EP in PP........!!!!

Say it ain't so.......! :D


Yes, and who knows what's actually in the EP...

... used to be that people just wanted hunting dogs with the natural tools to do the job.

Then, the Victorian era, AKC, etc., etc. and they all had to be "pure bred" and have a particular "look".

Now, I like a DD to look like a DD.

But, if my dogs didn't point for $h!t I'd be looking to get it in there!!!

The old guys didn't fool around, and I think it's because they actually wanted to hunt and not just bolster their egos with dogs that could be trained to pass a freaking test (or two, or three)...


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Re: Black PP

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:38 am

I've seen a couple of PP's and Labs where I had to ask, what the heck is that???
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Re: Black PP

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:46 am

orhunter wrote:I've seen a couple of PP's and Labs where I had to ask, what the heck is that???


You know, if you look at photos of the early 20ths century you would be amazed at how a lot of breeds looked very much the same.

You didn't see the sloped back, hunched hindquarters in german shepherds... they actually had the conformation you see in field dogs.

DDs didnt' have the goatee/DK short coat but actually looked a little shaggier.

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Re: Black PP

Postby Highlander » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:43 am

The black color in German breeds came from a famous solid black pointer owned by the father of modern English pointers - William Arkwright.
The dog gave the German breeds a keen nose, speed, wide range... and style, which for Germans and Americans have no value at all :D
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