Next dog... vdog or setter?

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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby JASmith » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:16 am

marjolein wrote:If you have a good pp, I don't think a good Setter will find you more birds. They just run bigger and it's more spectacular to watch.


I'd like to see one to compare, but I feel like my PP runs pretty big and spectacularly. Covers enough ground that I, even a younger guy, work my butt off to keep up with her.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby Grange » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:53 pm

If you want to see english setters hunt go to a cover dog trial this spring. The Minnesota Grouse Dog Association will likely have a couple trials. I believe they trial in the Rum River State Forest, which is where I competed when I attended their trials. The Chippewa Valley Grouse Dog Association out of WI will likely host a trial or two in western WI (Eau Claire County Forest) and the Moose River Grouse Dog Association normally hosts a trial in northwestern WI near Solon Springs. You will see some nice setters and pointers at any of these trials.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby cjm » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Grange wrote:If you want to see english setters hunt go to a cover dog trial this spring. The Minnesota Grouse Dog Association will likely have a couple trials.


Good idea, thanks!


AverageGuy wrote:CJM, I am not real clear how you want a dog, (possibly a setter) to hunt differently than your PP does. Closer, Slower, farther, faster, more caution around birds?


Good question. I don't really have anything in particular in mind - I don't have any complaints with my PP and I think he does great. I just don't know if I think he's great because he is or because I don't have anything to compare to. I like his speed and range. If I got a setter, I'd get one bred for grouse hunting. Like I said, my PP pointed 75% of the grouse he contacted this fall and he was 2.5 years old when the season started. As far as I can tell, that is pretty good. But if a setter would point 90%, that would be even better. If a setter wouldn't do much better, then I wouldn't want to trade the versatility of the PP. So maybe I'm mostly thinking about cautiousness. However, as you brought up - we didn't have too many unproductive points this fall, which is nice too.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby EMK » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:29 pm

[quote=" I don't have any complaints with my PP and I think he does great. .[/quote]

Forgive me but this sticks out in my mind. Understand where your coming from but as far as I see, you still have a young dog at 2.5 years old. Still a lot for it to work out and improve upon.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby #8 shot » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:57 am

Like I said, my PP pointed 75% of the grouse he contacted this fall and he was 2.5 years old when the season started. As far as I can tell, that is pretty good. But if a setter would point 90%, that would be even better.


One thing to remember there many more variables than just breed that make a productive grouse dog. Good genetics do give you the best chance to begin with in all breeds. But each individual pup in a litter will turn out different depending on the environmental influences it has as it grows and learns the game. So will a setter give you a 15% increase in finds because it is a setter, man I don't know how that could be said by anyone on any breed.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby cjm » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:48 am

for sure, i wholeheartedly agree. but there are also general differences between a versatile breed like a PP and a specialist breed like a setter. i'm just trying to get a better sense of what those differences are from people who have experience with both. whatever i get next, i'll get a dog from a breeder who mostly hunts grouse, the dog will get the same exposure, and it will have the same owner - so the primary variable to think about is breed. my hope is that by asking for thoughts from people who have owned both i'm controlling a bit for variance attributable to owner, training, and exposure differences.

maybe another way to ask about this is - why are most cover dog champions ESs? is it primarily because that is the main breed entered? or do they have a particular ability and skillset? and if so, what is it and how is it different from a good vdog? again, understanding that there is much variation within breeds.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby Coveyrise64 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:56 am

I hear they turn out some pretty nice setters.....in your back yard too!

http://www.bergbrossetters.com/

!cid_D0D9B3D5-EB18-4C6B-AC91-06EAE7BA09DE@lan.jpg


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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby Chadwick » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:34 pm

Jerry turns out very nice setters as well. He is up in Sandstone.

http://northwoodsbirddogs.com
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby #8 shot » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:57 pm

maybe another way to ask about this is - why are most cover dog champions ESs? is it primarily because that is the main breed entered? or do they have a particular ability and skillset? and if so, what is it and how is it different from a good vdog? again, understanding that there is much variation within breeds.


In speaking with guys who run cover dog they want speed. More ground covered = more points basically, just like pointers and setters in AA horseback dogs first dog to the point scores. I wish Steve Anker was on here he could really give you a better idea. I have only been to 3 coverdog trials personally and I know there is more to it than that.

The main differences I see in my dogs. Heat tolerance my setter has really short hair and can run in 70 degree weather for hours. He has no hair on his belly I have to put a skid plate on him or he gets tore up. Heat is not my Griffs friend. Size my Griff is in really good shape and weights roughly 60 lbs I think, my setter is right around 40 lbs. Head set when running, the Griff runs like most Vdogs I have seen more of a ground scenting, the setter head is high air scenting.

Something else to think about is the tail it looks cool straight up on point. But a good 3" of Flash's tail looks like hamburg on a stick at the end of hunting.It never even crossed my mind when I got my setter. A friends pointer is the same way.Not all the long tail dogs I hunt with have the same problems but it is a pain.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby oldtimer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:11 pm

I have owned many Setters. They find a lot of birds, but that is where it ends. After the shot, they are not the best, they would rather find more birds. If you hunt the Setter with the PP you should be alright. Setters are not going to trail a wounded pheasant through a cattail slough 200 yards, or search a duck swamp for a half an hour for a wounded Mallard. If you want a bird finding machine, and don't mind the after the shot stuff they are truly beautiful and elegant creatures.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby jfwhit » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:34 pm

I'm living a similar life. My Brittany will find birds all day, but is only interested in live ones. My last bird shot this season hit the wide open dirt in a food plot. Stood up and ran into the field. Hoped my Brittany would track it. Got a good start, then wanted to hunt again. I know I could/should force fetch. Now I have a PP pup with dreams of her being my pointer/tracker/retriever.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby oldtimer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:21 pm

French Brits hunt dead very well. Some American Brits hunt dead well, and some do not. The European dogs like PPs, DDs, EBs, Griffs, Weims, DKs, SML, DL, and others really seem to hunt well after the shot. Americans seem to value the location of game more than the recovery of game. At least in pointing breeds. FTs stress run and location of game, without anything after that. Americans are competitive, so FTs have shaped our breeds.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby Grange » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:05 pm

cjm wrote:for sure, i wholeheartedly agree. but there are also general differences between a versatile breed like a PP and a specialist breed like a setter. i'm just trying to get a better sense of what those differences are from people who have experience with both. whatever i get next, i'll get a dog from a breeder who mostly hunts grouse, the dog will get the same exposure, and it will have the same owner - so the primary variable to think about is breed. my hope is that by asking for thoughts from people who have owned both i'm controlling a bit for variance attributable to owner, training, and exposure differences.

maybe another way to ask about this is - why are most cover dog champions ESs? is it primarily because that is the main breed entered? or do they have a particular ability and skillset? and if so, what is it and how is it different from a good vdog? again, understanding that there is much variation within breeds.


My first exposure to english setters was attending a Chippewa Valley Grouse Dog Association spring trial. I walked 4 braces that day while I was there I saw only one setter. That setter proceeded ran off and after about 10 to 15 minutes, but that was all it took. I knew my next dog was going to be an english setter. The pointers I saw that day were all nice and ran fine, but there is something about a fast setter in the grouse woods. To me there is no other dog that has the style and grace moving through the wood at high speeds that is exhibited by a setter. A nice brittany can be close, but they don't have a tail and I love a high crack'n tain and then 12o'clock tail on point.

Several years ago I combed through about 5 years or so of all cover dog running orders that had breed and placements available and compared the percentages of placements between the breeds. I found breeds completed, setters, pointers, GSPs, and brittanies. English setters and pointers dominated the entries, but their winning percentages based on the number of entries was roughly the same. The brittany had the highest percentage though if I remember correctly some of the trials were brittany only so that likely skewed the results.

I've competed in several cover dog trials and judged a few. I have placed pointers as well as setters. I love setters, but a good dog is a good dog. I think setters are more graceful and smooth through the cover and some have such powerful stride that will drop my jaw, but pointers seem to run with such determination like it's the dog's sole purpose is to find a bird.

All that said if the breeding worked my next puppy will be a brittany. As much as I love setters when there is a good breeding I can't pass it up. My parents raise brittanies and bred their Cover dog Champion brittany and I told them I want a puppy. This brittany has almost everything I want in my grouse dog minus a tail.
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Re: Next dog... vdog or setter?

Postby cjm » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:43 am

great info. sounds like i'll always want a vdog, but maybe a setter mixed in as a compliment would be nice. hmm. decisions decisions. i'm not in a rush, so i'll follow up on the advice to check out a trial and look into some local breeders.
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