Too many DD litters? Quality?

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby orhunter » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:00 pm

Average Guy: "They do so utilizing blood lines/genetics that others before and around them are working with." This is how it should work but rarely does.

Gonehuntin': "Understand how good it is or is not. Few people willing or able to do this." We've all seen some good, or potentially good dogs, in the wrong hands so many times.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:16 pm

It sounds like there are dogs in the DD system, just like in any other system, that are being bred here and there that probably should not be. It seems to me though that the system is not what should demonized or criticized. Buyers should simply do their due diligence to seek out the breeders that are producing what they want. The system is still one of the best there is as far as weeding out "most" of the dogs that are sub par. The system is likely to weed out dogs that are in the bottom 50% or so and it is up to the breeders who adhere to the system to go beyond what is required to pass the tests by allowing true hunting to be the ultimate measuring stick. The system makes it more likely that you can get a puppy from one of the breeders within it and get a dog that will point, track and retrieve. But, if you want one that is in the 90th percentile you better do more homework than blindly picking breeder with puppies on the ground.
Last edited by JTracyII on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:18 pm

hicntry wrote:It appears that breeding has become akin to playing the lotto. "Odds" are, if you breed to titled dogs your goung to get a few good-un out of it. LOL Odds are, because of the sheer numbers of dogs not hunted, there are much better dogs curled up on someones couch than any of you will ever see. Odds are, you are going to also breed a lot of crap....with a few good-un thrown in there.

'And then,

" They do so utilizing bloodlines/genetics that others before them and around them are working with."

Just what do you think a bloodline is???? Comes from a line of dogs. So, how do you plan on doing that? Genetics, you mean randomly bred genetics that are all over the map?


It's not "lotto"...

At least for the DDs and the JGHV breeds it isn't.

The "test system" was developed to determine "trends" not for competition. There's a big difference. Even when NAVHDA started Bodo was against the Invitational format because he was afraid and rightly so that it would instill competition.

Used correctly, the scores should identify trends in traits and provide data to show which dogs are passing those traits on... over several generations this is invaluable information to see where to go to improve.

There used to be an end of year table in the DD Blaetter that compared the scores of progeny out of the active studs that showed this... incredible information...

And, the goal of a breeder should be to constantly improve and more importantly throw consistency. Because, consistency indicates to me that the results aren't flukes.

I truly think that the average DD is a better all around dog than many average dogs of some other hunting breeds... I've been around long enough, hunted enough of them, seen other breeds, and judged enough to say that with a degree of confidence. This I believe to be because of the testing system that theoretically if implemented correctly aids in sound breeding decisions, not so much that other breeds are inferior. I'd also go so far to say that some of the other (off the radar) JGHV dogs rank up there too, again because of the system. Unfortunately, they don't have the critical mass yet compared to the gene pool of the DD. But, I like what little I've seen of the KM, DL, and PP especially.

That said, I truly believe that the demands of the hunter(who frequently hunts)/breeder are different than the demands of the hunter(who occasionally hunts)/breeder, because the latter probably isn't so inclined or driven to hunt wild game. And, I believe strongly that it is on wild game that we see the true capability our dogs have.

Further to that point, I believe that dogs that I've evaluated who were hunted regularly on wild game vs. those hunted occasionally on preserves were better prepared for the NA tests. I've seen it. And, the question might be as to whether the goal post gets unintentionally lowered when more and more of the less frequently hunted dogs become more prevalent... that is, the perspective gradually changes.

I think this is the crux of this thread.

Just my $.02,

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:22 pm

I have not demonized the system. Not sure anyone else has either. Rather I have stated my opinion that the best determinate for breeding a dog is the process of raising it, training it and hunting it. The breeders I want to buy a dog from do just that. And they test their dogs as well. Some breeders however just test their dogs and hunt very little. I do not buy my puppies from them.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:39 pm

The problem with most small breeders is that they select a stud out of convenience, not because they have studied the dog, his abilities, his detriments, and his attributes. They don't want to fly their female across the country to be bred, incur the airline costs, and possible have an unsuccessful breeding.

The TRUE breeders will go to any length to find and breed to a great dog. A friend of mine was going to ship one of his female's to Holland to be bred because that dog had a tremendous range and he wanted to try to extend his dog's range. I don't remember why it didn't happen, but it had nothing to do with him quibbling on the cost.

That is what I see as the problem of buying from small breeders; they just won''t and don't invest the time and money into making unusual breedings. Very few (myself included) know enough about genetics to accurately pick a great outcross or line breeding. When I buy a new dog (which these days instead of once every couple of months is once every 10 years), I only buy from a person I personally know and trust and one I know has the knowledge to make successful breedings.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:55 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I have not demonized the system. Not sure anyone else has either. Rather I have stated my opinion that the best determinate for breeding a dog is the process of raising it, training it and hunting it. The breeders I want to buy a dog from do just that. And they test their dogs as well. Some breeders however just test their dogs and hunt very little. I do not buy my puppies from them.


I hear you. Maybe demonize is too strong. And, I didn't think you were speaking negatively about the system.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:24 pm

GH,

The source of your puppy enjoys an excellent reputation. Well deserved I am sure. Looking at his dogs pedigrees on line they appear to be exactly the cooperative mix of other breeders bloodlines that I spoke of. I do not see many breeders these days going it entirely alone. The knowledge and ability to objectively judge the dogs part is always critical. I am certain the best have others whose opinions they seek out and use, but they know everything they need to know about a dog before they ever run them in a hunt test.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:41 pm

Nobody has demonized the system. I think most everybody can agree though, that not all breeders will put the effort into their dogs they deserve.

We hunt a lot, but we can't give up everything and family to work with dogs. Others will, and that's fine, but no need to criticize others efforts to improve the breed.
randomnut
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:04 pm

randomnut wrote:Nobody has demonized the system. I think most everybody can agree though, that not all breeders will put the effort into their dogs they deserve.

We hunt a lot, but we can't give up everything and family to work with dogs. Others will, and that's fine, but no need to criticize others efforts to improve the breed.


Randomnut, I am not criticizing one and two dog breeders for Producing pups regardless of their reasons. I am seriously stating that there is nothing they do TO IMPROVE THE BREED. They muck it up more than anything. Do you have any idea how many pups it would take to "make any difference at all" in a breed? No one person breeding a dog or two can even make a mark. But consider all the people starting to breed.....enough non breeders producing pups will make a dramatic difference in a breed.

Let's face reality, it is going to happen, just a matter how long it is going to take and no breed club can stop it.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3376
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:25 pm

This is for GH. Here is a video of a litter of pups that are not socialised. Never been in a house, never had a collar or leash on. Can you tell which is the most confident, strongest dog in the litter......and each dog in descending order? I am guessing it is going to be an easy deal.

Image
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3376
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:04 pm

hicntry wrote:This is for GH. Here is a video of a litter of pups that are not socialised. Never been in a house, never had a collar or leash on. Can you tell which is the most confident, strongest dog in the litter......and each dog in descending order? I am guessing it is going to be an easy deal.

Image


I know it wasn't meant for me, but I looked. Second to the door, first up the stairs would be my opinion. Good looking dogs.
randomnut
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby TobyTx » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:10 pm

Should there be anything as "pick of the litter" if they are well breed, uniform pups?
Cabo vom Sendero vjp 69 hzp np
TobyTx
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby TobyTx » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:12 pm

What exactly is a breed warden supposed to do?
Cabo vom Sendero vjp 69 hzp np
TobyTx
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:24 pm

I kind of lost track of them coming up the steps but it looked to me like the first one out was the dominant pup in the liter, but the second one out may well have been the boldest. The other interesting thing was that it seemed the fourth pup in didn't hesitate in the least at the stair. He boldly came right up. So to me, 1st pup out definitely looked to be the alpha pup, but it may be a toss up between 2 & 4 as to which is the most self assured. I really liked the confidence pup 4 had in itself.

And that's why you keep em' for a year. :D
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:26 pm

TobyTx wrote:Should there be anything as "pick of the litter" if they are well breed, uniform pups?


No matter what you do, they're not clones. While most DD pups are going to be good hunters, some will surely excel.
randomnut
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests