Too many DD litters? Quality?

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:09 pm

I think that the biggest issue is when a breeder thinks that he/she has/can pick the best pup from a litter...

First, at 7 weeks that is presumptuous.

Second, if you really did the job you should be able to close your eyes and pick.

The next issue is when you keep a pup, realize it isn't the best, realize it is not as good as the parents and continue to use it in your "program" because you want to create a "line".

The really good breeders have run into a wall and started all over... or, just stopped. That is the idealistic breeder that I respect.

Another thing I've seen in the "old school" breeders is giving away a litter when they've done an "experiment". They don't put the onus on the puppy owner if something goes wrong. Takes a lot of guts, moreover idealism.

If you're into the second round of the alphabet and still have problems you're trying to breed out... that should be self explanatory.

An old DD guy once asked me what you should strive for as a breeder, and when I stumbled he told me "... to turn out pups that were better than the parents...". The point was the goal for each litter should be to IMPROVE, not just maintain.

I tattooed a litter last summer, and to the surprise of both the breeder and the #2 pick my wife and I selected a completely different pup... watching them grow and develop, aside from little idiosyncrasies all three are solid pups any of which I'd have been pleased with. My wife and I just liked the longer coat on the one pup. My opinion, all three have noses that are as good, possibly better than the mom... and, that's saying something.

IMPROVE not just maintain...

3ds
Last edited by 3drahthaars on Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:10 pm

Unless a breed has essentially died out, there is zero need for every breeder to have 20 dogs and no occupation unless they just choose to do so. Rather you make yourself knowledgeable of the good breeders and bloodlines within your chosen breed and work cooperatively to utilize excellent dogs in your breeding which you do not own. A knowledgeable and dedicated person working within a strong breed and gene pool can easily produce nice dogs working on a small scale, assuming they can work cooperatively with others and keep their egos in check when someone has something better that they need to bring into their next litter.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:47 pm

I think this is kind of a strange thread. My experience with DD's is that they are great dog's, it's easy to get a good dog, and there are few problems within the breed. So, I'm kind of surprised that some people think there are problems within the breed. Now, I'm no breeder, never had any interest in it, never wanted to. Training and campaigning were my things. I've worked with more dog's than most people will see in a lifetime. I've learned one thing about breeding dog's and I agree with HC. You can breed two great dog's together and end up with a pile of crap. You can breed two FC's or NFC's and end up with an expensive liter of goats. As far as I can determine, there are no great lines of DD's. A great line of dog's is like HC's airdale's, Ferrel Millers line of pointers, Robert Wehle's line of pointers, Ryman Setters, Walker Fox Hounds and many more. Those were lines of dog's developed by persons or families from their own dog's, mercilessly culled, impeccably developed. THAT was a LINE of dog's. I don't see anything even remotely close to that in DD's.

When I buy a new DD, I buy only from one person because I've known that person for 40 years and trust him implicitly. I don't have enough knowledge of the DD lines to make an intelligent decision on my own. Looking at the parents of a liter tells you little; looking at generations does. I have neither the interest, the time, nor the inclination to do so and neither do the majority of people I have ever met looking for a DD.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:06 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I think this is kind of a strange thread. My experience with DD's is that they are great dog's, it's easy to get a good dog, and there are few problems within the breed. So, I'm kind of surprised that some people think there are problems within the breed. Now, I'm no breeder, never had any interest in it, never wanted to. Training and campaigning were my things. I've worked with more dog's than most people will see in a lifetime. I've learned one thing about breeding dog's and I agree with HC. You can breed two great dog's together and end up with a pile of crap. You can breed two FC's or NFC's and end up with an expensive liter of goats. As far as I can determine, there are no great lines of DD's. A great line of dog's is like HC's airdale's, Ferrel Millers line of pointers, Robert Wehle's line of pointers, Ryman Setters, Walker Fox Hounds and many more. Those were lines of dog's developed by persons or families from their own dog's, mercilessly culled, impeccably developed. THAT was a LINE of dog's. I don't see anything even remotely close to that in DD's.

When I buy a new DD, I buy only from one person because I've known that person for 40 years and trust him implicitly. I don't have enough knowledge of the DD lines to make an intelligent decision on my own. Looking at the parents of a liter tells you little; looking at generations does. I have neither the interest, the time, nor the inclination to do so and neither do the majority of people I have ever met looking for a DD.


Just a little FYI and history.

One of the most prolific DD studs in Germany wasn't a superstar by any means. I cannot remember his scores, but they wouldn't stand out in these days of 70+ VJPs, 190+ HZPs and 11/12s and 12/11s that I've seen in the past several years. He may or may not have ever been used in these days of the big numbers.

But, he consistently turned out physically healthy dogs in a time when there were some health problems in the breed. And, he turned out a lot of pups.

That he was used enough to determine his value was one thing. That he sometimes didn't "nick" was another, and they knew how to use him where he worked. Pure "farmer's" intuition I believe... surely not as analytic as breeding has become these days...

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:53 pm

GH,

My thought relative to the OP was not the DD is suffering in quality, but rather with the explosion in popularity and growth in new breeders, would problems creep in as they have with many other breeds when they experienced a rapid growth in new breeders. Seems many DD owners are comfortable the controls in place will safeguard the breed. I hope they are right about that.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:41 pm

Gonehuntin,
Yes two field champions can produce crap. But its the ODDS of getting crap that are less than with dogs of suspect heritage.

While I don't know the requirements off the top of my head. AKC, at least for retrievers has a designation of OD, "outstanding dam". You can go to K9 data .com and find results for siblings, offspring etc.... Go through a pedigree and start seeing these things and the odds go up for a good pup.

And I believe long time breeders and others with lots of experience can see traits in puppies that separate them from their litter mates. I know that I don't have enough experience to do that, but I do know that by spending time with the litters I raised myself, that certain pups stood out. If you cant spend hours and hours with the litter, just grab one. Thats why with my new pup, I looked at the pedigree, the breeder, and had her send me the darkest pup in the litter.


So HC, you said you got a female and started breeding, what did she show you that said she was suitable???
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:08 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I think this is kind of a strange thread. My experience with DD's is that they are great dog's, it's easy to get a good dog, and there are few problems within the breed. So, I'm kind of surprised that some people think there are problems within the breed. Now, I'm no breeder, never had any interest in it, never wanted to. Training and campaigning were my things. I've worked with more dog's than most people will see in a lifetime. I've learned one thing about breeding dog's and I agree with HC. You can breed two great dog's together and end up with a pile of crap. You can breed two FC's or NFC's and end up with an expensive liter of goats. As far as I can determine, there are no great lines of DD's. A great line of dog's is like HC's airdale's, Ferrel Millers line of pointers, Robert Wehle's line of pointers, Ryman Setters, Walker Fox Hounds and many more. Those were lines of dog's developed by persons or families from their own dog's, mercilessly culled, impeccably developed. THAT was a LINE of dog's. I don't see anything even remotely close to that in DD's.

When I buy a new DD, I buy only from one person because I've known that person for 40 years and trust him implicitly. I don't have enough knowledge of the DD lines to make an intelligent decision on my own. Looking at the parents of a liter tells you little; looking at generations does. I have neither the interest, the time, nor the inclination to do so and neither do the majority of people I have ever met looking for a DD.


Whoa, GH, never seen my name mentioned in such great company, Miller, Elhew, Ryman. That means more to me than seeing my dogs in all those books. Sadly, what is considered breeding and breeders by today's standards has nothing to do with the art of breeding things like actual lines. What is that???? LOL Down in the "Other Breeds" forum, I posted a picture of one of my 14 generation dogs in her first hunting season. She is probably 22 months old and doing a bang up job with a novice trainer for a non sporting breed. What is funny is reading how breeding today is about doing your homework and breeding test titles to test titles. Reyna is 5/8 my line and 3/8 DDR Airedale with nothing but high level titles for protection work behind her. Not one hunting title.....and she was the last dog in the litter. Ya gotta wonder how that is possible. Most of the people participating in this thread wouldn't even know how to figure out what 5/8, 3/8, 3/4(Tucco), 1/4 crosses between lines are, but, it is these things that separate breeders from those that just produce puppies.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby orhunter » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:48 am

Based on the first part of the thread title,"Too Many DD Litters." How does the market affect the number of dogs produced? Are all these dogs being placed in homes that reflect the effort of VDD to produce outstanding hunting dogs? I can't imagine there are sufficient bonafide hunters to create this market if there are indeed too many litters. If these good hunting homes do exist in numbers great enough to support the market, there ought to be numerous dissatisfied owners to back up the quality theory.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7193
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:48 pm

Good point Orhunter. I am also wondering on what basis are folks forming their opinions. Are folks who think there are a lot more poor litters being produced basing their assumptions on first hand knowledge of a lot of the dogs being bred? If on some other information, then what?
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:47 pm

HC, few people realize what it takes to DEVELOP A LINE. Most breeders dump their pups at 8-10 weeks for maximum profit, because that's what customers want, and because they have no desire to keep them longer. If I were trying to develop a line, I'd keep the pups until a year, evaluating and training them. At a year I'd keep the best for a breeding program, destroy any that were marginal dog's, and see the average dog's to hunters. You have to both develop and train a dog to understand how good it is or is not. There are very, very, few people willing or able to do this.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:18 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:HC, few people realize what it takes to DEVELOP A LINE. Most breeders dump their pups at 8-10 weeks for maximum profit, because that's what customers want, and because they have no desire to keep them longer. If I were trying to develop a line, I'd keep the pups until a year, evaluating and training them. At a year I'd keep the best for a breeding program, destroy any that were marginal dog's, and see the average dog's to hunters. You have to both develop and train a dog to understand how good it is or is not. There are very, very, few people willing or able to do this.


Correct, very few people have time to train and develop 2 dogs a year, let alone 6. A good partner refuses to let dogs sit idle in kennels or the yard.

I instead will develop close relationships with my buyers and work hard to keep tabs on their development. Weather so repeat the breeding to keep a pup for myself is yet to be determined.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 (197.5 Armbruster)
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:24 pm

It is not in the cards for most modern day breeders to develop their own distinct line of dogs within a breed. The time and resources required are out of reach for all but a few.

That does not mean that small scale breeders cannot produce quality puppies however. They do so utilizing bloodlines/genetics that others before them and around them are working with.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:44 pm

It appears that breeding has become akin to playing the lotto. "Odds" are, if you breed two titled dogs your going to get a few good-un out of it. LOL Odds are, because of the sheer numbers of dogs not hunted, there are much better dogs curled up on someones couch than any of you will ever see. Odds are, you are going to also breed a lot of crap....with a few good-uns thrown in there.

'And then,

" They do so utilizing bloodlines/genetics that others before them and around them are working with."

Just what do you think a bloodline is???? Comes from a line of dogs. So, how do you plan on doing that? Genetics, you mean randomly bred genetics that are all over the map?
Last edited by hicntry on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:51 pm

Personally, I think the breed has been touted so well that the breed has caught the eye of the pet folks and they are buying a lot of them. Probably be the next most popular pet in America. Happened to a lot of high stung dog like the Dobies, GSD's, Rotties. They are all still around so the outlook isn't that bleak.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:57 pm

HC,

I am in the camp that thinks developing and hunting a dog is the best and certainly the most critical determination as to its suitability for breeding. I think we are of similar mind there.

On the bloodlines, the practical outcome I see is people buy dogs from the larger long term successful breeders who have developed strong lines of dogs which produce a distinct and recognizable type. I did it the first time when I bought a B&T rich in Hans Wagner's Nightrider line of dogs 40 years ago. If the line is good and the person verifies the dog they purchased, developed and hunted from that line is also an excellent candidate for breeding, there is no reason genetically they can produce a large percentage of good puppies, is what I am saying.

I bought a GWP pup from a large scale breeder in 86. The pup was a stud in every sense of the word. Bold, confident, strong point, track and retrieve skills evident from 8 weeks on. Hunted him successfully on fur, feathers and fowl from 5 months old to 14 years old. HIs hunting drive and skills were among the best I have ever seen in one dog. He lived to be 16 with zero health problems. Had excellent leggy athletic conformation, decent but not perfect coat. His motherline was PP and he showed it. The dog also had excellent mental characteristics and would literally turn away from another growly male dog. Only once did a dog attack him before I could get there and he immediately pinned the dog and then let him. He was not mad in the least. The dog was utterly confident in all settings. Loved people, ignored other dogs.

Several hunting buddies of mine purchased dogs from the same breeder and line. We breed my male to 3 bitches from the same breeder and line. I got 3 pick of the litter pups and used one of them to breed another bitch which was also from the same line of dogs and my pick from that litter is my now 13 year old dog Jack. He has been an excellent dog, started young, standout nose and drive, effortless tracking, excellent search, waterwork, blood tracking, excellent confident, bold always happy mental makeup. Loves dogs and people. I hunted with his littermate brother for his entire life as well and he was also a very nice dog.

This is what I mean when I say that a person can use someone else's bloodlines to carry on some nice dogs on a small scale breeding program. Without the larger breeders we would all struggle for sure. But I do not discount the smaller breeders who tap the right genetics and have the skills to screen whether the dog they have should be bred or not.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests