Too many DD litters? Quality?

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby OBXDD » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:03 pm

I would agree with you. I am not in your sense what you would call here in the good Ole USA a breeder. And God knows I would never want to be that miserable. But for the sake of this argument and for the people who are not familiar with the German system. You cannot breed in the German system without gobs of paper work and hurdles to have a certificate as a breeder. So for further clarification,
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:35 pm

So hicntry, What is the difference between your first breeding and someone else's first breeding?

Pick the right dogs with the right titles and yes you do increase the odds significantly of getting good dogs. Theres no guarantees in anything, but the odds are better with quality breedings. And the odds of getting a great dog are much higher than with a non tested/trialed breeding.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:39 am

If there is a cause for concern I do not think it is automatically linked to Breeders and their first litter necessarily. Every breeder has to start somewhere.

The quality of a litter depends on the genetics of the dogs being paired not the breeder. A first time breeder in many cases has purchased a dog with excellent genetics from a long time dedicated breeder. Breeding that dog may well carry on some excellent genetic qualities.

The concern I spoke of is whether all the new breeders rapidly appearing, have the ability to discern whether their dogs have sufficient genetically determined qualities to warrant breeding. That coupled with the VDD mantra around testing which has so indoctrinated new members to think that passing a couple of hunt tests assures their dogs are worthy of breeding.

I have seen too many tests to buy into that. The artificial hunt tests cannot adequately evaluate some of the critical areas that ultimately determine if a dog can produce game under varied conditions (weather, terrain, different birds). The tests are most commonly conducted during times of the year that would not even demonstrate whether the dog will handle cold icy water conditions for example. Will the dog still search for birds on the last day of an out of state hunting trip when it is exhausted and its feet are sore? How does it handle being put on the ground with a number of new dogs? Can it handle hot dry scenting conditions? Is the search being evaluated in a VJP because the puppy has trained in that field all summer long and has found birds in it every time? Will the puppy display the same search in new territory after 3 hours of finding no birds? How quickly did the puppy adapt and produce birds when taken on a road trip to entirely new terrain and birds that it has never encountered? Many things that are critically important but are impossible to evaluate in 30 minutes on the ground in 20 acre field on planted birds with twice the scent of a wild bird ...

Good Breeders evaluate these things I touch on above, by raising and hunting the dog first and foremost. When I mentioned how easy was the dog to train in an earlier post, I was thinking about natural pointing instinct for example. Did the dog require many pigeons in launchers, and lots of work on a check cord to get it to point? or was it naturally and easily inclined to point and hold a point when it got a snootful of bird scent? Did it take to tracking on its own at an early age? How easily did the pup learn to slow down and pull its head up and not bump a bird as it followed a track? Was the dog naturally soft mouthed or did it require 2 months of work on a bench to establish a proper hold of a bird? Was it naturally driven to mark and race to the fall, or was FF required to fire the dog up about retrieving?

None of those things can be revealed about the dog in a short hunt test. Only the person who raised and developed the dog can speak to them and if that person is working with their first dog and lacks exposure to other breeds their yardstick may only be 2 feet long if you get my drift.

I did not want to be misinterpreted as saying a first time breeder is automatically a problem. That has no bearing on the dogs genetics and it is the genetics that determine the quality of the puppies.

OBXDD, asked the right question awhile back. What do you do differently/additionally if something needs to be altered or added? I am thinking on that, but most important I hope VDD Breeders and Leaders are thinking about it as well, as there is a lot of rapid growth taking place.

Those who think the two hunt tests alone adequately secure a breeding program concern me the most. Sorry if that offends someone but I think the discussion benefits from saying it.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:45 am

Lovely checklist there AG, and valuable insight as well.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:46 am

Great points AG. Sounds like OBXDD is on the right track, and I wasn't necessarily referring to new breeders. I know a longtime GNA member who I think is just looking to raise pups, as long as the dogs can pass HZP.

Doesn't matter if it's litter A or S, if the quality is there.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby orhunter » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:21 am

I've recommended first time breeders in the past because they were recommended to me by folks I trust. The path of communication is very important and if it goes through the right people, there is little to fear. Photos and pedigree in hand are required also so I can evaluate coat and physical structure. All the litter information I've passed to pup buyers are of the quality I'd buy a pup from. If it's not good enough for me, it's not good enough for you.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:47 pm

Kiger2 wrote:So hicntry, What is the difference between your first breeding and someone else's first breeding?

Pick the right dogs with the right titles and yes you do increase the odds significantly of getting good dogs. Theres no guarantees in anything, but the odds are better with quality breedings. And the odds of getting a great dog are much higher than with a non tested/trialed breeding.


Yes, it is common sense that you pick the best dogs to start. There are no other options, but, as you said, there no guarantees the dogs are compatible. It is a crap shoot to begin with.


My first breeding was no different than most novices Kiger as to the reasons why I did it. The aftermath of that first litter was different than most. The reason I did it was the Airedale was no longer what it once was and I had a dog that seldom needed feeding because she was out hunting 24/7 and she was always bringing rabbits, birds and squirrels home.. I thought the breed could use some of that. A houndsman I used to run dogs with was pretty impressed with that dog and he brought an Airedale in from Tennessee. I had a PURPOSE for breeding that dog and that was to take the breed back to what it should be for my own use. At this point I was not a breeder, but I had a litter. So, the curiosity was overwhelming and I kept the two top males to raise up and see what I produced. If someone with their first litter sells all their pups rather that keeping at least one to see what they produced first hand, it is probably money driven,or, was done so they have a replacement dog for their own use. Has nothing to do with breeding....it is merely producing dogs. Actual breeding takes a long time just to see what the results of what you have produced are. Two yeas later after countless hours in the field with those two males I kept, I was happy and acquired a mature, unrelated female and bred her to one of the male pups. Once again, I kept the top male and eventually bred him back to the original female. Out of that litter I kept three of females and raised them up. I never intended to go down the road with such intensive inbreeding, but by this time I came to the same conclusion that Chadwick expressed earlier. The gene pool had to be narrowed down to produce consistent results.....that is what I did. Went from one dog to eight, to twenty+ and had to move to an isolated spot because I knew I had to keep pups out of each litter TO SEE WHAT I WAS PRODUCING. No one can breed dogs for any purpose, such as keeping the breed strong with two dogs. Can't be done. Can't call yourself a breeder if you can't be bothered with keep some of the pups to see what you are producing. It takes years of culling expense and absolute curiosity to see just what can be done. Sadly, the majority of people just breed their two dogs, this year, next year, and the year after that.

Yes, I know it isn't possible for everyone to keep multiple dogs, but, it would be nice if they just fessed up and admitted they just wanted the puppy experience
and forgot all the BS about improving the breed. There is nothing breed specific about people wanting to have pups. I watched the great dobies go into the toilet, the GSD's, the rotties, the Irish setters all go downhill because volumes of NON BREEDERS decided to produce puppies. Many of those breeds I mentioned were governed by German systems, but when so many pups are being bred by people with other venues, the breeds will suffer. It is inevitable.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:26 pm

I will not keep more dogs than I can hunt. I'm not retired, I don't get 3 months off a year to travel and hunt. Three dogs will forever be our max. If that means I will never be a breeder, so be it.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:47 pm

Hicntry,

One thing to keep in mind is that with your breed of choice, the Airedale, I know of no testing venue (that tests in the areas that you used your dogs for) that your puppy buyers could have utilized for you to get at least some information from. Thus, you were forced to keep puppies to get feedback. I agree with you that keeping one or two pups is the best way to get feedback on the litter produced, but there are other benefits to the testing system that keeping a single dog does not allow for. If the pups are placed in testing homes, then the breeder is able to get feedback on multiple pups (sometimes every pup in a single litter), so it is not like a breeder not keeping a pup is getting no information on the litter produced.

Furthermore, the one that keeps one or two dogs from a litter is likely to do there best to keep the "best" one in their eyes, understandably, but if the breeder is right and picks the good one, then what about the rest of the litter that could be no good at all? But, because the one the breeder kept was great he/she assumes the breeding worked out great as well, so they continue to breed away. Granted, I am not so sure a breeder can pick the "best" in the litter at such a young age, but it is your opinion that one can. And, it may be the case. I tend to agree that they can pick one that is likely going to be in the top 50% of the litter. That argument is for another thread. The testing system is not perfect and there are flaws (as mentioned here), but it is a good way to gain valuable information about "large" percentages of litters and allow folks who breed and don't want to keep one to still call themselves breeders.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:55 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:I will not keep more dogs than I can hunt. I'm not retired, I don't get 3 months off a year to travel and hunt. Three dogs will forever be our max. If that means I will never be a breeder, so be it.


Breed away Miss K, you are the norm today, not the exception. Not everyone is as blessed as I was...I did have to move to do it, I had millions of acres to hunt just outside the door. As far as being retired, I made my choices and worked part time or not at all since I was 38. Life was about dogs. The second or third wife gave me an ultimatum, It had to be her or the dogs after 8 years. LOL I asked her where she wanted me to put her stuff. As far as whether your a breeder or not is of no concern to me. Whether the particular breed is tested, blah, blah, blah, is of no concern to me. Whether or not the breed is going down hill is of no concern because when so many clueless people are doing the vast majority of the breeding, the only way for any breed to go is downhill as is evidence by all the great breeds before the DD.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:00 pm

JTracyII wrote:Hicntry,

One thing to keep in mind is that with your breed of choice, the Airedale, I know of no testing venue (that tests in the areas that you used your dogs for) that your puppy buyers could have utilized for you to get at least some information from. Thus, you were forced to keep puppies to get feedback. I agree with you that keeping one or two pups is the best way to get feedback on the litter produced, but there are other benefits to the testing system that keeping a single dog does not allow for. If the pups are placed in testing homes, then the breeder is able to get feedback on multiple pups (sometimes every pup in a single litter), so it is not like a breeder not keeping a pup is getting no information on the litter produced.

Furthermore, the one that keeps one or two dogs from a litter is likely to do there best to keep the "best" one in their eyes, understandably, but if the breeder is right and picks the good one, then what about the rest of the litter that could be no good at all? But, because the one the breeder kept was great he/she assumes the breeding worked out great as well, so they continue to breed away. Granted, I am not so sure a breeder can pick the "best" in the litter at such a young age, but it is your opinion that one can. And, it may be the case. I tend to agree that they can pick one that is likely going to be in the top 50% of the litter. That argument is for another thread. The testing system is not perfect and there are flaws (as mentioned here), but it is a good way to gain valuable information about "large" percentages of litters and allow folks who breed and don't want to keep one to still call themselves breeders.


Just curious JTRACEY, how many litters have you produced and raised??
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:02 pm

0 so far. Which points that I made do you disagree with?
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby STait » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:02 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:I will not keep more dogs than I can hunt. I'm not retired, I don't get 3 months off a year to travel and hunt. Three dogs will forever be our max. If that means I will never be a breeder, so be it.


But, you can be very careful in your selection by placing puppies in the "right" hands and watching their progress, which I'm sure you have already thought of;-) I only have 5 dogs and just started working with 3 generations, but I have a much clearer view of what direction I am going than when I first started, not long ago. Takes time, money, and the right kind of "handler", that's what I'm finding out. I know I cannot help the breed much at all, but I can help people get the type of dog they have been looking for, rather than a dog produced by other people with bad skeletons or other health issues. Not that mine are perfect, I also realize it's a long process!
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby STait » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:08 pm

JTracyII wrote:Hicntry,

Furthermore, the one that keeps one or two dogs from a litter is likely to do there best to keep the "best" one in their eyes, understandably, but if the breeder is right and picks the good one, then what about the rest of the litter that could be no good at all?


Anyone with a brain that is wanting to get into breeding likely did not start with a pair of dogs that would produce one good puppy, with the rest being "no good at all". I guess it could happen, but seems pretty unlikely.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:11 pm

STait wrote:
JTracyII wrote:Hicntry,

Furthermore, the one that keeps one or two dogs from a litter is likely to do there best to keep the "best" one in their eyes, understandably, but if the breeder is right and picks the good one, then what about the rest of the litter that could be no good at all?


Anyone with a brain that is wanting to get into breeding likely did not start with a pair of dogs that would produce one good puppy, with the rest being "no good at all". I guess it could happen, but seems pretty unlikely.


I fully agree...no argument here.
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