Too many DD litters? Quality?

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:49 pm

GH is right, the qualifying marks for breedability have to be higher than what an average, run of the mill dog can pass. Unless they are, there will be more average dogs bred than anything else simply because there are more average dogs..... regardless of the breed. Xrays and such have nothing to do what makes a great dog great outside of the health. and maybe, the conformation. Then you have many breeders today that will go to any lengths to save unhealthy pups.....for the good of the breed???? Or the $1200 bucks as was mentioned by others. Bottom line, no one can control how people are going to rationalize the viability of the dogs they are breeding today.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:03 pm

This has been interesting to follow.

A couple of thoughts. when someone tells me the mom or dads a great hunter, hunted everyday of the season. That tells me nothing. Unless I go out and actually hunt with the dog, I have no idea how the dog hunts. could be a piece of you know what.I have no idea of the quality of the dog.

I could hunt a pig every day of the season but that doesn't mean it can or cant hunt.

I need to have something that demonstrates the dogs ability that is as objective as possible. Lets just take Goldens as an example. One of the most popular dogs in america year in and year out. So One would think that with supply and demand, Goldens would be pretty cheap. But field goldens with proven pedigrees are running 1500 to 2800. Why would that be? Because of competition. (Health clearances are also a big component) The field side of AKC has hunt tests, non competitive, and trials which are competitive. If you want to COMPETE in a trial, you need to get a quality dog. We all know that not every pup in a litter will have what it takes. Dogs get washed out of training. But the ones that are competative, carry the traits that are needed to produce a good hunting or trial dog. The costs involved are probably far higher for a trial ret champion, but its the degree of difficulty that drives the price.

A lot of people that trial retrievers don't hunt. But the dogs they breed do!! Thats because the requirements to become a champion are difficult, test for the QUALITIES desirable in a hunting retriever and you have to have at least one WIN, to become a champion.

I have had the opportunity to hunt with lots of different breeds and within those breeds, different quality of pedigree. Without exception, the dogs with better pedigrees were better hunters and the better pedigrees with better training were the best.

So I Iwould say that if your method of testing doesn't offer you a high probability of getting a good or great hunter. Your testing method needs to be changed. With a test or a standard, you really don't separate out the best.
I don't think the Vdog world needs to change the traditional testing method. But ADDING a competitive system to help evaluate the dogs against other dogs would be of great value.

My goldens don't look like the breed standard. I don't real care. They perform. Their coats are more suited to hunting etc.. AKC allowed a division to occur by not requiring a champion to be both a bench champion and a field champion. For me I don't really care. Lots of people don't hunt but want to be involved with dogs, so they have the show side. Good for them.

I think there is one area where the ret world needs to make a change. staring to see more issue with dogs being vocal in the blind. I think AKC (probably dogs also) needs to add a new component of the trial /test system where that dog has to sit in a blind quietly as calls are blown birds shot etc..... Pretty easy to do, not much additional time.

So to conclude. Just because a dog hunts a 100 days a year, doesn't mean it should be bred. The testing should easily identify those dogs that have the qualities deserving of being bred. It would help eliminate those that are just out to try and make a buck.

Makes sense doesn't it.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Chadwick » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:27 am

The testing system everyone keeps discussing originated in Germany and it is for more than just breeding. It has to do with how and if the dog can be hunted and it also impacts the dog owner's insurance. The testing works fine given what it was designed to do. It sets a minimum standard of performance.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:25 am

But there are MANY breeders out there that simply breed two tested dog's and sell the. You should net about $6000.00 out of an average litter. Three litters a year is a nice little sideline. It won't make you rich, it's just a fun sideline.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:00 am

If there is a problem creeping in with some DD litters it is not remotely due to dogs being bred which have been hunted 100 days a year but not tested. That is not even allowed. I am willing to bet a lot, that persons who hunt behind a pig for 100 days a year are very few and far between. Anyone who hunts that much is far more likely to have done the work to find, develop and train an excellent dog is what I see happening.

The problem creeping in is due to the opposite, people who hunt very little acquiring a dog, training it on planted birds sufficient to pass a couple of hunt tests and then as JONOV postulated, thinking that automatically means the dog is good to go for breeding. That will not maintain much less improve on the quality that more knowledgeable and objective breeders have accomplished.

We have attached near mythical properties to hunt tests. Nothing is better than an opportunity to hunt with a dog across multiple terrain, weather and wild game species as the basis for evaluating its performance. I would never buy a dog from a breeder who does not. Combining that with the evaluations of Hunt Tests and Health screenings was the original intent and behavior of the VDD Founders. The quality of the DDs resulting from that approach has brought rapid growth in demand and some growing pains that in other breeds have lead to decline as new breeders crop up quickly. Rather than focusing on how to best maintain quality in a rapidly expanding new breeder pool, the most recent leadership activities have focused instead on limiting their dogs use in other Sporting dog venues which does zero towards maintaining quality within the VDD (misleading claims otherwise are obviously factually incorrect and yes the NAVHDA problem has been fixed but look at all the wasted consternation it caused with nothing accomplished for the DDs being bred resulting from it).

My hope is the DD Breeders will work to safeguard against a decline in quality vs being defensive about its existence, or at least the possibility of it, in a rapidly expanding new breeder environment. Which seems consistent with RandomNut's OP.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby woodboro » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:40 am

I am holding back a ton of pressure :lol:

I am putting this in general terms , but pig hunting , and a DD is just like any other form of hunting.
This being said, some DD's find their nitch in pig hunting , deer hunting or cougar or bear hunting.
How many of you have heard of other breeds doing that ??

I have a retired hunter , that did not like duck hunting but was a master upland hunter.
Yes this is all under a Ult. dog tested.

Evaluating a dog for breeding or receiving a pup is a job in its self.
I have to wonder how many on this web site, actually go hunting with the bitch and stud , before they get a pup??
And lets not forget that it is not just bird hunting , but all the activities a ult. tested dog does.
So how many on this web site hunts multiple times with both parents ???
Don't like that coupling because of hunting with those two dogs , how many other hunts with future parents to determine , not only the scores ,
BUT how well they hunt in front of your eyes ???

Finally I'd like to point out , that some talk as if they hunt a lot, but if they marked on there calendar just how many days they actually hunt they might be
surprised how little they actually hunt.
Example 4 months (16 weekends actually add up to 32 hunts)

I know I am trying to put this all into perspective , in a generalized way, but most if not all of us are not professional hunters or hunt 100 days.

Defending the test system of JGHV I will stand by , for production of all breeds, but I also defend the hunting community in regards to talent of a dog.
* My first DD had only been tested in VJP test. ( I knew nothing , but to hunt, including 10 years behind shorthairs)
My point is that that first DD , I hunted the $#*! out of that dog , had hand signals down to a 'T' and was an awesome Grouse, woodcock , and duck dog.
I was clueless to bloodtracking and all the rest that makes a Ult. tested dog. He was hunted daily..... so he learned his lessons not only from me , but how
to coupe in the hunting world.

Arguments of clubs leadership , and making a stink about it , I only have one advisable suggestion - If you don't like leadership , then join the club , and run for the
position. My point on all of that is that club leadership or any position in a club is not easy. Its donated time, with sweat equity for only helping the organization.
I'm done.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby ryanr » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:04 am

hicntry wrote:GH is right, the qualifying marks for breedability have to be higher than what an average, run of the mill dog can pass.


You're right and I believe they are. I'm more familiar with NAVHDA testing and from what I see an average, run of the mill dog is simply not going to be able to earn a prize in the Utility Test, much less a Prize 1. Sure there are some dogs that do prize that some folks say "I wouldn't pay to feed that dog in my kennel." That's a subjective opinion from one person, and one without the benefit of full explanation or evaluation. I'll take the combined judgement of 3 qualified judges after a full day's evaluation of a dog over hyperbole anyday. I've seen some dogs prize in UT that I didn't particularly care for but I still wouldn't say they were average or run of the mill. Heck, I saw a dog earn a prize 1 that I know I would never want a pup from. I also hunted over this dog and again, I still wouldn't say the dog was average or run of the mill.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:21 am

AverageGuy wrote:If there is a problem creeping in with some DD litters it is not remotely due to dogs being bred which have been hunted 100 days a year but not tested. That is not even allowed. I am willing to bet a lot, that persons who hunt behind a pig for 100 days a year are very few and far between. Anyone who hunts that much is far more likely to have done the work to find, develop and train an excellent dog is what I see happening.

The problem creeping in is due to the opposite, people who hunt very little acquiring a dog, training it on planted birds sufficient to pass a couple of hunt tests and then as JONOV postulated, thinking that automatically means the dog is good to go for breeding. That will not maintain much less improve on the quality that more knowledgeable and objective breeders have accomplished.

We have attached near mythical properties to hunt tests. Nothing is better than an opportunity to hunt with a dog across multiple terrain, weather and wild game species as the basis for evaluating its performance. I would never buy a dog from a breeder who does not. Combining that with the evaluations of Hunt Tests and Health screenings was the original intent and behavior of the VDD Founders. The quality of the DDs resulting from that approach has brought rapid growth in demand and some growing pains that in other breeds have lead to decline as new breeders crop up quickly. Rather than focusing on how to best maintain quality in a rapidly expanding new breeder pool, the most recent leadership activities have focused instead on limiting their dogs use in other Sporting dog venues which does zero towards maintaining quality within the VDD (misleading claims otherwise are obviously factually incorrect and yes the NAVHDA problem has been fixed but look at all the wasted consternation it caused with nothing accomplished for the DDs being bred resulting from it).

My hope is the DD Breeders will work to safeguard against a decline in quality vs being defensive about its existence, or at least the possibility of it, in a rapidly expanding new breeder environment. Which seems consistent with RandomNut's OP.


After 20 years in VDD, 3 dogs, 15 years judging I went to NODAK for the first time 5 years ago with my current pup (8mo).

I purposely did not plant birds until that hunting trip.

What I saw in my pup in different terrain with wild game opened my eyes as a hunter and more so as a judge... I saw things I hadn't experienced, learned a lot about the effect of correct "exposure" vs. training, and changed my perspectives on judging (and how the judge apprenticeships should be conducted).

For two years pups from my club have traveled to east coast VJPs and gotten the only "11s" awarded for search in those test weekends... those two pups had one thing in common... they were hunted on wild birds!

Referring to an old JGHV document that most know don't know exists(ed) and some ignore, the Germans understood more than we give credit... they wouldn't fail a pup on "planted" gamebirds! They were scored as "-" and noted as failed on planted game... NOT evaluated on wild game birds.

Tells me something... scores are to identify "trends" in litters, parents, etc... they do not provide the entire story and information necessary for breeding...

Just my opinion, not that anyone really cares...

One thing to add, OBXDD chimed in on this breeder bashing, and duly so. I think we're still friends ;). At any rate, his and mine are the two pups to which I referred above. I've watched his pup grow and consider it one of the most talented DDs I've had the pleasure to watch... truly the real deal (temperament, desire, raw ability, talent). He agonized over every aspect of raising, hunting, testing and breeding his dog. His first litter from what I've seen maintained and in some things exceeded the talents of its parents. He and his like are truly "breeders" in the true sense and tradition of the DD. We have to keep in mind that these guys do exist. But, they are not stamped out assembly line fashion... just like the pups they were born and raised that way. And, just like his pup he is a BORN hunter with a passion to hunt...

... HUNTERS breeding for HUNTERS vs. breeders breeding for buyers is the only successful direction for these and any hunting breeds!!!

It will be up to the free market to recognize and reward the difference.

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby OBXDD » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:32 pm

We are absolutely great friends Bob, You have helped me greatly and introduced me to a very dedicated puppy buyer, but when I see a thread title "Too many DD liters" and I am on litter A I felt I needed to give my 2 cents.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:57 pm

I see a trend here and am not sure if it is good one. Maybe it is just a sign of the times. How does producing one litter qualify a person as a "breeder". Like wise, I have seen people that have one litter and refer to it as their line. I can think of dozens of people that have produced a litter of pups that would never consider themselves breeders. I know many that have produced multiple litters that it would be a mistake to call them breeders.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:22 pm

OBXDD wrote:We are absolutely great friends Bob, You have helped me greatly and introduced me to a very dedicated puppy buyer, but when I see a thread title "Too many DD liters" and I am on litter A I felt I needed to give my 2 cents.



Ben,

We and NCDD are too much alike, eh?

Passionate about hunting and the dogs!!!

Just look at our avitars... we love to hunt...

I forgot to mention that had I not had Arraka, Karen offered me Dolly when I did the tattooing (she's the one that caught my eye)... talk about following a puppy literally from the kennel to adulthood... the only thing better than getting her was meeting you now, I get to watch those pups!!!

If you decide to breed again, I have another great prospect (hunts every weekend and grew up with setters and labs). That is if you State people can stand another Hokie.

Take care and see you at the club on Sunday,

Bob
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:39 pm

hicntry wrote:I see a trend here and am not sure if it is good one. Maybe it is just a sign of the times. How does producing one litter qualify a person as a "breeder". Like wise, I have seen people that have one litter and refer to it as their line. I can think of dozens of people that have produced a litter of pups that would never consider themselves breeders. I know many that have produced multiple litters that it would be a mistake to call them breeders.


hc,

It's no trend.

The tradition of the VDD was hunters breeding for hunters... by your definition a "breeder" is someone who is in it for the business.

Each DD "breeder" (Zuchter) has a registered kennel (Zwinger) regardless of whether he is a hunter or a professional dog fornicator.

We're in agreement on "the line" thing, though... but, that term is something out of ignorance for a single litter guy to claim.

Some DD breeders who produce several outstanding generations founded on a single bitch are awarded the distinction albeit honor of a ML (motherline), but it is not handed out promiscuously nor indiscriminately. My pup's mother is an import out of one of those few kennels still in existence. True to her ancestors, she passed every available test and then some (including the A.H.) in her first two years, not to mention was a great dog that got hunted.


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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:53 pm

"The tradition of the VDD was hunters breeding for hunters... by your definition a "breeder" is someone who is in it for the business."

3d's I started breeding for me to have dogs to hunt...it just got away from me seeing how far I could develope the "line". A one litter breeder, to me, is like me claiming to be a mechanic because I changed a tire on a car. Apparently there is no baseline of knowledge to be a breeder today. I bred for a lot of years and had a lot of litters.....and I never quit learning so it is hard for me to envision one litter "breeders".
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:23 pm

hicntry wrote:"The tradition of the VDD was hunters breeding for hunters... by your definition a "breeder" is someone who is in it for the business."

3d's I started breeding for me to have dogs to hunt...it just got away from me seeing how far I could develope the "line". A one litter breeder, to me, is like me claiming to be a mechanic because I changed a tire on a car. Apparently there is no baseline of knowledge to be a breeder today. I bred for a lot of years and had a lot of litters.....and I never quit learning so it is hard for me to envision one litter "breeders".


Semantics... pure and simple. ;)

I got mine from what GNA calls "pop up" breeder who bought her mom. I liked the stud and several other pups of various breedings that I'd judged out of his father and went for it. That "breeder" spared no expense for his dogs, hunted, took great care of them and the pups, wasn't really out to make $$$.

I love my pup, and most of that litter developed into good dogs test/hunt.

If you know dogs and what you are buying it really doesn't make much difference whether the breeder's a one-timer or a career guy...
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:11 pm

LOL


OK semantics. Pick the right dogs with titles and you are going to get a litter of great dogs?? You really believe that? A couple of really good dogs may be in the litter....but what about the majority of them? I think maybe this thread is addressing all the other pups that don't make the grade and there is nothing breed specific about it. The first 4 or 5 litters for any novice is as much of a crap shoot as it is for novices to pick their own pups.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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