Too many DD litters? Quality?

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Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:22 pm

I know this should be in the German forum, but thought I might get more response here. Any opinions from GNA members about the # of litters born each year? I don't have the knowledge or experience most all of you have, but it seems a lot of sub par breedings are happening.

My opinion only, of course, but it seems everybody thinks they have a worthy male or female.

So why breed a dog that's lacking? Or, why breed a dog that's not sufficient in certain areas? Maybe it's me, but there are dogs being bred that don't like to retrieve, don't point well, don't like water, soft coats, low prey drive, etc.

Training can make a dog do a lot of things they aren't comfortable with, but isn't that settling?
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Smilin Jack » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:25 pm

Don't know if it has anything to do with breeding but I had the Dis-pleasure of meeting up with a Gentleman that had 2 DDs in a petfood store . 1yr old and the other 3yr. . They immediately started a ruckus when they saw Duchess , my 4 yr. old PP , and wouldn't shut up or listen to anything their owner said . Meanwhile Dutch just sat and looked at them . We finally wandered off to finish our chore and left the store .
Haven't been around any DDs , is that normal to them or is it a problem with the owner and his training ????
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:03 am

Smilin Jack wrote:Don't know if it has anything to do with breeding but I had the Dis-pleasure of meeting up with a Gentleman that had 2 DDs in a petfood store . 1yr old and the other 3yr. . They immediately started a ruckus when they saw Duchess , my 4 yr. old PP , and wouldn't shut up or listen to anything their owner said . Meanwhile Dutch just sat and looked at them . We finally wandered off to finish our chore and left the store .
Haven't been around any DDs , is that normal to them or is it a problem with the owner and his training ????


Couldn't tell ya. I've actually seen less issues with Drahts than other breeds, concerning sharpness towards other dogs anyway. Maybe folks mistake displays of dominance as sharpness? Not saying they're not out there, just haven't seen it personally.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:03 am

randomnut wrote:I know this should be in the German forum, but thought I might get more response here. Any opinions from GNA members about the # of litters born each year? I don't have the knowledge or experience most all of you have, but it seems a lot of sub par breedings are happening.

My opinion only, of course, but it seems everybody thinks they have a worthy male or female.

So why breed a dog that's lacking? Or, why breed a dog that's not sufficient in certain areas? Maybe it's me, but there are dogs being bred that don't like to retrieve, don't point well, don't like water, soft coats, low prey drive, etc.

Training can make a dog do a lot of things they aren't comfortable with, but isn't that settling?


Well,

  • $1200 non-taxable income per puppy
  • puppies = votes... for the breeder who is also a politician
  • mis-use of the test system, i.e. a tested dog meets breed requirements... therefore it MUST be bred
  • GNA has encouraged this for growth...
  • could go on and on... but, you get the gist

GNA has gone from a breed club to a club of breeders... not necessarily good for the hunters.

Some of the breeders barely hunt their dogs at all...

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:35 am

The VDD system has produced a great breed of dogs and has been duplicated in other breeds and organizations to produce strong lines of dogs in other breeds.

But like any tool it is only as good as people's use of it. The test system while a useful hurdle to breeding should never be the sole criteria, but there seems to be a growing volume of litters where it is. Too often the people breeding lack experience hunting with other breeds of dogs on a variety of conditions and wild game. If you have not seen an EP or FT strain GSP work on wild birds, you really do not know what a great search and inherited pointing instinct looks like. If you have not worked with and hunted with a well bred Lab you have not seen what top of the heap retrieving and marking NA looks like. Hunting with hounds provides an excellent opportunity to see what top of the heap tracking skills looks like. Terriers and Curs bring new meaning to the term prey drive.

I do not think an artificial test on released birds that can adequately determine if a dog should be bred. And attending single breed only training days and hunt tests does not provide all the useful benchmarking opportunities that exposure (ideally hunting) to other breeds does.

My sense is the DD breed remains very strong, but that problems are creeping in on the whole, due to the commonly seen downside that comes with increased popularity and a rapidly expanding breeder pool. At the same time, I think the best of the DDs Breeders have improved the breed greatly in temperament, search, pointing instinct and coat from my first exposure to the breed decades ago.

My view is the testing system was intended to screen out dogs unsuitable for breeding but was never intended to solely select those that should be bred. Raising, training and hunting the dog can best determine that. How difficult a dog was to train in all the differing tasks should be a key determinate as well as performance over many tasks, weather, terrain and species of wild game. And Health Screenings of course.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby woodboro » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:45 am

aggression issues run a fine line in DD's.
But it also depends on how they are handled in their first year.
I have a clients dog that is the biggest whimp of all time , but looks to be a good hunter and has wonderful breeding.
I my self have in the kennel a very obnoxious character which most people would not even come close to.
Ironically he might be my best hunter I have had in 30 years.

Everyone in the GNA -VDD world thinks they know how to breed. 95% of them cross breed , and half of their litters are never tested.
Some of these dogs end up getting saturated bred to GWP's....
These owners should be shot, because of the lack of loyalty to the breed and organization that got them a wonderful hunting dog.
IMO most new (novice) owners are like owners of other inferior breed owners and think they need to train game drive into DD's.
This absolutely never needs to be done, because of the breeding standard over 120 years has given the breed.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:08 am

I think for many years the DD breed has had some individual dogs with excellent hunting skills but problems with Aggression. If they are overlooked and the dog is used for breeding the problem gets passed on. That simple.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby oldtimer » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:36 am

I have NEVER seen aggression issues in any DDs I have been around in the last 10 years. I think DDs have far less aggression than Labs I have been around.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:38 pm

oldtimer wrote:I have NEVER seen aggression issues in any DDs I have been around in the last 10 years.


I have. 3ds has mentioned his experience with it numerous times, Smilin Jack relays his recent experience, and Woodboro posts he has one in his kennel right now.

I have also recently seen a very nice male DD turn away from an opportunity to fight, and had another large male lick the side of my face moments after meeting me.

I like DDs. Alot. In just about any other breed the GWPs I hunt with would be considered a strain with the same breed, but not wanting to start that family feud up here.

Like any breed, I see some very qualified DD breeders doing an excellent job and improving the breed as I described in first post above. And I have seen others who lack the knowledge, experience and most importantly the objectivity to properly screen for dogs worthy and unworthy of breeding.

Which seemed to be what Randomnut tee'd up in his OP.

I think it a misplaced complete reliance on the testing system that leads some breeders astray. They believe because their dog passed the VJP and HZP tests they are good to go for breeding. I believe many good hunting dogs are not worthy of breeding and have two of them in my kennel right now.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby ryanr » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:58 pm

randomnut wrote:I know this should be in the German forum, but thought I might get more response here. Any opinions from GNA members about the # of litters born each year? I don't have the knowledge or experience most all of you have, but it seems a lot of sub par breedings are happening.

My opinion only, of course, but it seems everybody thinks they have a worthy male or female.

So why breed a dog that's lacking? Or, why breed a dog that's not sufficient in certain areas? Maybe it's me, but there are dogs being bred that don't like to retrieve, don't point well, don't like water, soft coats, low prey drive, etc.

Training can make a dog do a lot of things they aren't comfortable with, but isn't that settling?

I'm just curious but what makes many of these breedings subpar as you say? DDs are bred and tested to a standard and only dogs meeting or exceeding that standard are even eligible for breeding. With that, it seems to me that the VDD has taken the steps to ensure there are no subpar DD breedings. Some breedings are more exceptional than others but it doesn't seem like there really can be subpar breedings within the VDD because of their strict standards for breeding eligibility.
Last edited by ryanr on Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:06 pm

Ryan, There's lots of Drahts out there, why can't every breeding be exceptional?

People don't buy Drahts looking for mediocrity.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby ryanr » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:47 pm

randomnut wrote:Ryan, There's lots of Drahts out there, why can't every breeding be exceptional?

People don't buy Drahts looking for mediocrity.


Um, you understand what exceptional means right? When something is exceptional there's not going to be a lot of it, that's kinda by definition.

You're right, people don't buy Drahts looking for mediocrity. That's why they're buying a Drahthaar because the breeding eligibility standards guard against mediocrity. There are a lot of good Drahthaars out there but I don't think you see many mediocre or poor Drahthaars like you might in other breeds without strict breeding eligibility standards.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:26 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
oldtimer wrote:I have NEVER seen aggression issues in any DDs I have been around in the last 10 years.


I have. 3ds has mentioned his experience with it numerous times, Smilin Jack relays his recent experience, and Woodboro posts he has one in his kennel right now.

I have also recently seen a very nice male DD turn away from an opportunity to fight, and had another large male lick the side of my face moments after meeting me.

I like DDs. Alot. In just about any other breed the GWPs I hunt with would be considered a strain with the same breed, but not wanting to start that family feud up here.

Like any breed, I see some very qualified DD breeders doing an excellent job and improving the breed as I described in first post above. And I have seen others who lack the knowledge, experience and most importantly the objectivity to properly screen for dogs worthy and unworthy of breeding.

Which seemed to be what Randomnut tee'd up in his OP.

I think it a misplaced complete reliance on the testing system that leads some breeders astray. They believe because their dog passed the VJP and HZP tests they are good to go for breeding. I believe many good hunting dogs are not worthy of breeding and have two of them in my kennel right now.


^ THIS!

Only thing to add is the ENORMOUS egos of some breeders... the quest by some to claim their own MotherLine defies logic. The mother line is a quest based on sound genetics... when you have an "issue" in your kennel, try to outcross to breed it out, can't over several studs and generations, and still keep the same maternal line...

... what does that tell you? (rhetorical question)

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:57 pm

I haven't been around the breed long, but I've seen a couple unstable dogs. Both had poor socialization (never left home/kennel prior to hunting season) that I wonder how much may have contributed.

I've seen plenty more unstable dogs among other breeds.

Dogs reproduce exponentially. Even if only 10% of DDs hit the breeding pool, the breed will still grow. The demand for the breed is HUGE right now, far above what I expected as a new breeder.
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:02 pm

Fascinating thread. 3d's has it pretty well figured out. Other than that, it is a dog breed like any other, there are really good ones and there are some not so good.
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