Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:53 pm

I have NO experience. This is our first versatile dog. I am considering for the overall value Tom Dokken's dvd set from gundogsupply.

We subscribed to gun dog magazine also- so both my fiancé and I are reading articles-I've gained a lot of insight from these forums and youtube, etc.

I've heard such good things about the navhda groups though- I already joined my local midsouth navhda chapter and will also join the natl level -just sent out the paperwork for that one.

The president of Midsouth Navhda actually called me some weeks back and spoke to me a long time over the phone and gave me tons of great info....I was very appreciative.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ryanr » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:58 pm

overit2 wrote:Dang, I guess I won't know what to expect at my first training day w/a new 20 week old Weim pup then huh? lol

Whispers behind my back, eyeballing, whispers? ;)


Average Guy gave great advice. NAVHDA folks are good people by and large, introduce yourself and your pup (we love meeting new pups.) Only thing I'll add is just don't be the person that let's their dog run free when you get there. Generally, unless the dog is actually being trained at the moment, all dogs at NAVHDA events should be leashed or crated. Typically after a dog has a training run the handler will put it back up in its crate in their vehicle and then go help out training the next dog and so on.

At our chapter trainings, we have a requirement that anyone going into the field for bird work must have a flourescent orange vest & hat, in accordance with our state Game Commission's regs. So having a fluorescent orange vest & hat already in your vehicle is a good idea. Bring plenty of water for you and your pup as well and maybe snacks and lunch if you want. Have a good attitude & willingness to help, observe & ask questions and have FUN.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:00 pm

Several of us on this forum recommend Joan Bailey's Helping Gundogs Train Themselves, book, and the Perfection Kennel series of DVDs, Perfect Start, Perfect Finish and Perfect Retrieve. The Perfect Start DVD would get you jumped started for what you want to work on in the near term as would JB's book. George Hickox's Great Beginnings is another good DVD and shows/teaches the benefits of clicker/treat training/conditioning on puppies which is hard to find in Gun Dog training materials in general.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:16 pm

Thank you! Great recommendations -two of those were on my list-

So, the George Hitckox includes clicker training? I guess I had it reversed. I thought he was more on the e-collar training.

This really helps. I hadn't hear of Joan Bailey's- will check that out also.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:27 pm

ryanr wrote:
overit2 wrote:Dang, I guess I won't know what to expect at my first training day w/a new 20 week old Weim pup then huh? lol

Whispers behind my back, eyeballing, whispers? ;)


Average Guy gave great advice. NAVHDA folks are good people by and large, introduce yourself and your pup (we love meeting new pups.) Only thing I'll add is just don't be the person that let's their dog run free when you get there. Generally, unless the dog is actually being trained at the moment, all dogs at NAVHDA events should be leashed or crated. Typically after a dog has a training run the handler will put it back up in its crate in their vehicle and then go help out training the next dog and so on.

At our chapter trainings, we have a requirement that anyone going into the field for bird work must have a flourescent orange vest & hat, in accordance with our state Game Commission's regs. So having a fluorescent orange vest & hat already in your vehicle is a good idea. Bring plenty of water for you and your pup as well and maybe snacks and lunch if you want. Have a good attitude & willingness to help, observe & ask questions and have FUN.


Had to comment on your statement... ;)

We had some NAVHDA guys from up north do a training clinic, I think it was for FF.

They about ruptured a coronary when they arrived and we dropped the tailgates and let 20 dogs loose! They pretty much said exactly what you posted.

Now, our club is a hunting club with a lot of NAVHDA, VDD, and pointer guys and we all hunt together. It's nothing to have 20 dogs on the ground.

The romp, clean out, play and then training begins, and they know the game. We need to know that they get along, and if not which ones have issues, because North Dakota is a long way from home to find out your dogs don't get along well.

I suppose to each his own. And, most important to observe the "house rules" at the first meeting.

It just tickled me to see that in writing, because we thought it was interesting that it caused such a stir.

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:41 pm

overit2 wrote:Thank you! Great recommendations -two of those were on my list-

So, the George Hitckox includes clicker training? I guess I had it reversed. I thought he was more on the e-collar training.

This really helps. I hadn't hear of Joan Bailey's- will check that out also.


Don't want to mislead you. George's DVD has both but he shows some foundational conditioning work on young pointer pups using clicker and treats. You will be hard pressed to find Gundog training materials which do not include Ecollar work along the way. They are an excellent tool, used correctly. The Perfection Kennel DVDs do a great job of teaching how Ecollars used correctly can bring a soft dog up, contrary to the misinformation so commonly put out by those who either do not use them and or do not know how to use them.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:51 pm

I don't oppose e-collars necessarily- not with dogs of their strength/size and given their 'jobs'-

We are still working on recall-not going to well. This morning he bolted out after my boys who were walking up the street to their bus- He got down about 4-5 houses while they stopped to try and tell him to go back.

I had my robe on-which is one my mom gave me- an ugly bulky flamingo pink one and was barefoot...and had to run down the street like THAT to get him as he would NOT come back when called...he eventually did run back towards me, but not after I had walked down past 3 houses...OMG - what I must have looked like lol

It's not a busy street per se-but I've GOT to get him conditioned to not leaving the front door unless on command and staying in our front yard (Back is fenced). I was REALLY wishing I had an e-collar this am as I ran after him I tell ya!
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:56 pm

And that was just your kids. Wait until he sees a squirrel, rabbit, or cat in the yard. These dogs are not normal dog's. I'm sure your view of the ecollar will change very quickly. It is THE easiest way to gain control of a dog in all circumstances and at all distances. And it is NOT brutal, it is added in small increments.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:56 pm

Double Post.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:09 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:And that was just your kids. Wait until he sees a squirrel, rabbit, or cat in the yard. These dogs are not normal dog's. I'm sure your view of the ecollar will change very quickly. It is THE easiest way to gain control of a dog in all circumstances and at all distances. And it is NOT brutal, it is added in small increments.


YES, this is exactly what I was thinking. Yep...I know the day is coming.

What age does conditioning start typically ? I agree, if used correctly it is not brutal and can be essential in saving his life (and my pride lol).
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby oldtimer » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:11 pm

E-collar is a MUST! Get one ASAP.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby JONOV » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:36 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:And that was just your kids. Wait until he sees a squirrel, rabbit, or cat in the yard. These dogs are not normal dog's. I'm sure your view of the ecollar will change very quickly. It is THE easiest way to gain control of a dog in all circumstances and at all distances. And it is NOT brutal, it is added in small increments.

I agree. I was in a similar spot to Overit about 3 months ago (my dog is about eight months old now.)

My only regret about the e collar is that I didn't introduce it a month sooner. I can walk him without a leash now. He heels and recalls well and sits on command. I can't tell you how nice it is to have him sitting nicely at my side while another dog walks past on his leash going bonkers. He still has major shortcomings that I'm working on, and I've made mistakes and things I would do differently (namely, I need to sharpen up his heeling, its sloppy), and sometimes he does "forget." Oddly enough, he has largely stopped the chasing of squirrels, but now he stalks and points them (and tweety birds,) relentlessly.

Someone with a very well trained dog taught me that you don't correct the dog unless you know that the dog knows what he's supposed to do. When you get agitated or angry and hit the button is (supposedly) when a lot of the damage takes place.

It also works wonders to get them to stop eating goose$#!+ in the park.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:10 pm

I see- so he is actually turning 17 weeks this week- ok to introduce at this age, between 17-20 weeks?
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Strongly suggest you purchase and watch some of the training materials we have discussed before you do anything with an ecollar. This will enable you to understand the training fundamentals you must accomplish with your puppy prior to incorporating the ecollar into that training, and how to go about it.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:25 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Strongly suggest you purchase and watch some of the training materials we have discussed before you do anything with an ecollar. This will enable you to understand the training fundamentals you must accomplish with your puppy prior to incorporating the ecollar into that training, and how to go about it.


+1. I have a hard time advising people because I've been using an collar since the 70's and they're second nature to me. This is the order I'd do things in: 1). Get and collar introduction program. Again, Evan Graham has some good material. 2). Buy a GOOD electric collar. I would recommend a tritronics pro 500. 3) He's a baby now and doing baby stuff. Keep him on a leash. When he is six months start GENTLY introducing the collar for HERE on a low two intensity. That's it. 4). This is a biggie. THE DOG NEVER GOES OUTSIDE FOR ANY REASON WITHOUT THE ECOLLAR ON even if you leave the transmitter inside. Pretty soon he'll beg to have the collar put on because he knows it means enjoyable outdoor time. 5) Before you begin with the collar, get him to HERE with treats. Then exchange the treats for the ecollar. By 7-8 months you can begin a little more pressure depending on the pup. I take mine hunting from six months on so I like them to come on a 2 with the collar before I take them out.

That's really about it. STUDY A GOOD LOW PRESSURE PROGRAM BEFORE YOU EVER USE THE COLLAR. Feel the intensities yourself on the points. you can easily go from low one to three without having your hair stand up. Then you can get rid of the pink training robe.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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