Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby JONOV » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:28 am

AverageGuy wrote:There are quite a few DD owner/posers around. And Growing.

Do you mean people that buy an FDSB "German Drathaar," or that they BS the breeder or that the breeder can't find buyers?
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:17 am

I mean I have observed quite a few new owners of DDs who claim to hunt but actually hunt very little. And a DD breeder or two doing the same, with their energies much more focused on testing and breeding than hunting. Same applies to maybe 50% of the Judges I see. Certainly not singling out the DDs, as NAVHDA training days are filled with the same as you noted. Just sharing my observation that the DD breed is increasingly suffering the same trend. Saw a beautiful PP puppy at a training day last summer that I seriously doubt will see much action in the field, and numerous GSPs and WPGs. The majority of GWPs owners do not even fake it and admit they do no hunting.

What 3Ds tee'd up is very observable and increasingly includes the DDs.

For many their lifestyles/stage of life, and geography make it difficult to hunt as much as some of us are fortunate to do. And then at some point it does become a fair question as to whether they should be acquiring a hard going hunting breed if they have no ability or intentions of using them to hunt. Lots of dogs needing adoption.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:42 am

I agree with that. The DD's I know of HERE may only hunt a week a year and are pets the rest of the time.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:29 pm

Interesting. Only one of the pups I have on the ground will go to homes that hunt less than I do (blood tracking is primary function), most will hunt more.

Several people sent piles of pictures as if they felt they had to prove they hunted enough to be approved for a DD.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby jlw034 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:31 pm

Very interesting.

Certainly a generalization, but I feel like our chapter of NAVHDA has mostly members that train to hunt.

And regarding DDs, I can't imagine getting one and not hunting it. Some days Lena's only redeeming factor is that she's pretty good at finding birds lol.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby JONOV » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:11 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I mean I have observed quite a few new owners of DDs who claim to hunt but actually hunt very little. And a DD breeder or two doing the same, with their energies much more focused on testing and breeding than hunting. Same applies to maybe 50% of the Judges I see. Certainly not singling out the DDs, as NAVHDA training days are filled with the same as you noted. Just sharing my observation that the DD breed is increasingly suffering the same trend. Saw a beautiful PP puppy at a training day last summer that I seriously doubt will see much action in the field, and numerous GSPs and WPGs. The majority of GWPs owners do not even fake it and admit they do no hunting.

What 3Ds tee'd up is very observable and increasingly includes the DDs.

For many their lifestyles/stage of life, and geography make it difficult to hunt as much as some of us are fortunate to do. And then at some point it does become a fair question as to whether they should be acquiring a hard going hunting breed if they have no ability or intentions of using them to hunt. Lots of dogs needing adoption.

I guess it depends on a lot of things. In NC, I have one day a week that I can hunt, legally, on public land (can't hunt on Sundays on public land in this state.) If I go to a training meeting, I'm not hunting that week.

For a breeder, it doesn't cut if for many people to say "they're great hunting dogs, trust me." It works for some, but if you're going to write a check for DD money, lots of buyers want some kind of verification that the pup has parents with real hunting chops. If you haven't hunted over the dog before, testing of one kind or another becomes the best evidence.

That said, I don't think that people who are more into training and competing with their dog, whether FT, VDD-GNA stuff, NAVHDA, etc, are doing a disservice to the animal.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:31 pm

I get a good puppy one at a time, develop, train and hunt them until they can hunt no longer, and then get another puppy. I find breeders who live in the heart of good game country and use their dogs to hunt as much or more than I do, and buy my puppies from them. I used great dogs I and my close hunting buddies purchased originally as puppies from the same Kennel/Breeder, to breed 4 litters over 30 years to keep myself in a good dog through that period. Some were tested in hunt tests some were not. All were hunted extensively every year of their life and I was able to watch and hunt with them from a puppy to the grave so none of the testing mattered to me.

I have Tested my dogs and participated in putting on Tests for others. Have been around FTs both Retrievers and Pointers, NAVHDA, VDD, UKC, and AKC hunt tests over decades so have some understanding and experience in those areas.

I have seen great dogs pass and fail the tests, and dogs I would not own pass and fail them as well. It would be the Breeders who talk the most and the loudest about Hunt Tests that I am most apt to steer clear of.

I do my own thing and leave others to do their's.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:33 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I get a good puppy one at a time, develop, train and hunt them until they can hunt no longer, and then get another puppy. I find breeders who live in the heart of good game country and use their dogs to hunt as much or more than I do, and buy my puppies from them. I used great dogs I and my close hunting buddies owned to breed 4 litters over 30 years to keep myself in a good dog through that period. Some were tested in hunt tests some were not. All were hunted extensively every year of their life and I was able to watch and hunt with them from a puppy to the grave so none of the testing mattered to me.

I have Tested my dogs and participated in putting on Tests for others. Have been around FTs both Retrievers and Pointers, NAVHDA, VDD, UKC, and AKC hunt tests over decades so have some understanding and experience in those areas.

I have seen great dogs pass and fail the tests, and dogs I would not own pass and fail them as well. It would be the Breeders who talk the most and the loudest about Hunt Tests that I am most apt to steer clear of.

I do my own thing and leave others to do their's.


x2

The good breeder should place much more of his decisions on his hunting experience with his dog than the test. Because even a great hunting dog can have a bad test day... just like a mediocre one can have the day of his life.

I can only add that when I was judging, I took notes, kept my scorebooks, and from that made the decision on my current pup... she's exceeded expectations. The dogs that I noted in most cases weren't always the high scores but dogs that showed me the temperament that I wanted and often suffered from newbie handlers and/or worst yet handlers who "knew it all" and in my opinion couldn't read a dog. The common thread was the handlers for one reason or another were focused to pass the tests. And, in most cases pushed the dog too hard, too fast.

I want a dog with a EXCELLENT temperament/personality (handler focused) and an average to average+ skill set.


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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ryanr » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:32 pm

AverageGuy wrote:There are quite a few DD owner/posers around. And Growing.


And what makes a DD owner/poser?

Just over 4yrs into my first versatile dog I think I've learned just a little bit about the "posers" and such, both breeders and owners. Still got a long way to go.

Now I didn't test my dog in the German system, something I regret a bit but I did test him (Natural Ability so far) in NAVHDA and was pretty dedicated to early exposure & daily training and remain so today. Within my NAVHDA chapter I train regularly with a small group of GWP owners (actually one guy started out with a GSP & now added a GWP pup.) We train so much and try to do it the right way that we recently broke off & formed a new chapter because we didn't like some of what we were seeing in the old chapter. All but one of these guys I train with got their GWPs from the same GWP kennel (where I'm getting a new pup.) Anyway we train a lot, both on our own and just about every weekend together from March thru August/September and we all hunt quite a bit. We can't hunt Sundays (yet) in PA except for some vermin & crows so our weekends are limited to Saturdays but working for state government I get 7 Holiday days during bird season plus I use about 12-14 vacation days strictly for hunting. I know I hunt much more than the average PA bird hunter and train my dog more but honestly I don't even think I do it enough. At least not enough for my dog's desires. When I meet other hunters that say they're very interested in my breed or any other versatile breed I practically grill them about how much they truly hunt AND train. More often then not they don't do either nearly as much as these dogs honestly require and demand. I tell them that when we're not hunting my dog needs no less than 45-60 minutes of off leash running EVERY day. Otherwise these breeds can be a PIA to live with. Some people look at me skeptically and I emphasize I am not exaggerating. I tell 'em my dog doesn't care if I'm sick or if it's cold or nasty weather, he still wants (demands) his daily run. I also tell them these dogs demand clear leadership and if you don't give it they can be very hard handle. I tell 'em most people would be better off with a Labrador or Setter or Pointer. I try to hold out hope that most of 'em believe me but probably not.

At almost every monthly chapter training event we see a couple of the "game players" and other "part-timers." Most of 'em seem to show up in March or April (shaking off their long winter dormancy I guess) and then again maybe in August or September. We've even had a few ask why the chapter doesn't hold more than one September trainings and an early October one, "you know to get the dogs ready & in shape for hunting season" they say. We simply reply "what do you think we're doing all Spring & Summer?" We also get the owner or two that essentially just wants to buy some birds for training days just so they can shoot them over their dog, regardless of the dog's steadiness or manners around birds. I don't like it when someone asks me to help them with steadiness and I work my butt off to plant birds or fill traps with birds only to have them (or tell me to) just shoot birds over an unsteady dog. Yes the birds cost money but don't think of it as you're buying birds just to shoot. You're buying them to train & IMPROVE your dog.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:42 pm

Perhaps someone that only uses their DD as a pet but tells the breeder it's for hunting???
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:37 pm

ryanr wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:There are quite a few DD owner/posers around. And Growing.


And what makes a DD owner/poser?


People who claim they hunt a lot and do not. And have little actual experience hunting and merely repeat what they hear at training days. I once received a lecture from a person who had never run a dog on a real blood track trying to actually recover a wounded deer, but thought they knew all about it based on the work they are doing at a training day in prep for test. Heard another say they would not hunt their pup on something or in some manner until they have run their VJP. A Breeder who missed most of hunting season because they were running around to hunt tests. Watched a dog attack another dog for no reason and the owner/breeder blame it on the other dog because it "postured" at their dog. Went hunting with a NAVHDA Director of Training and his dogs were completely out of control the whole time at ages 2 and 4. People standing around talking about how their dog handled a coon let out of a box trap as though that made it a coon dog. Same people going on to talk about boars, who would not know a boar from a sow much less ever hunt them with their dogs. Have seen a pup run a smoking hot rabbit track for less than 10 yards and then pull up and go into search mode, and get scored a 9. A person throwing a fit at their pup getting scored an 8 in pointing when it roaded in and bumped 3 or 4 birds it found in the field. A dog that yipped once two feet from the jump and then went silent and got recorded scent loud. Have heard several lectures on the superiority of VDD test system vs NAVHDA from persons who have never even attended a NAVHDA test much less ran one.

And man if I only had a dollar for every GWP vs DD lecture I have received from a first time DD owner who has never even hunted with a GWP, good or bad ...

Those are a few observations that easily come to mind.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby TobyTx » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:55 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
ryanr wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:There are quite a few DD owner/posers around. And Growing.


And what makes a DD owner/poser?


People who claim they hunt a lot and do not. And have little actual experience hunting and merely repeat what they hear at training days. I once received a lecture from a person who had never run a dog on a real blood track trying to actually recover a wounded deer, but thought they knew all about it based on the work they are doing at a training day in prep for test. Heard another say they would not hunt their pup on something or in some manner until they have run their VJP. A Breeder who missed most of hunting season because they were running around to hunt tests. Watched a dog attack another dog for no reason and the owner/breeder blame it on the other dog because it "postured" at their dog. Went hunting with a NAVHDA Director of Training and his dogs were completely out of control the whole time at ages 2 and 4. People standing around talking about how their dog handled a coon let out of a box trap as though that made it a coon dog. Same people going on to talk about boars, who would not know a boar from a sow much less ever hunt them with their dogs. Have seen a pup run a smoking hot rabbit track for less than 10 yards and then pull up and go into search mode, and get scored a 9. A person throwing a fit at their pup getting scored an 8 in pointing when it roaded in and bumped 3 or 4 birds it found in the field. A dog that yipped once two feet from the jump and then went silent and got recorded scent loud. Have heard several lectures on the superiority of VDD test system vs NAVHDA from persons who have never even attended a NAVHDA test much less ran one.

And man if I only had a dollar for every GWP vs DD lecture I have received from a first time DD owner who has never even hunted with a GWP, good or bad ...

Those are a few observations that easily come to mind.


Yup, especially that last one. Seems to be mandatory that new members talk down on GWP having never seen one much less hunting behind a good one.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:40 am

TobyTx wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:
ryanr wrote:
And what makes a DD owner/poser?


People who claim they hunt a lot and do not. And have little actual experience hunting and merely repeat what they hear at training days. I once received a lecture from a person who had never run a dog on a real blood track trying to actually recover a wounded deer, but thought they knew all about it based on the work they are doing at a training day in prep for test. Heard another say they would not hunt their pup on something or in some manner until they have run their VJP. A Breeder who missed most of hunting season because they were running around to hunt tests. Watched a dog attack another dog for no reason and the owner/breeder blame it on the other dog because it "postured" at their dog. Went hunting with a NAVHDA Director of Training and his dogs were completely out of control the whole time at ages 2 and 4. People standing around talking about how their dog handled a coon let out of a box trap as though that made it a coon dog. Same people going on to talk about boars, who would not know a boar from a sow much less ever hunt them with their dogs. Have seen a pup run a smoking hot rabbit track for less than 10 yards and then pull up and go into search mode, and get scored a 9. A person throwing a fit at their pup getting scored an 8 in pointing when it roaded in and bumped 3 or 4 birds it found in the field. A dog that yipped once two feet from the jump and then went silent and got recorded scent loud. Have heard several lectures on the superiority of VDD test system vs NAVHDA from persons who have never even attended a NAVHDA test much less ran one.

And man if I only had a dollar for every GWP vs DD lecture I have received from a first time DD owner who has never even hunted with a GWP, good or bad ...

Those are a few observations that easily come to mind.


Yup, especially that last one. Seems to be mandatory that new members talk down on GWP having never seen one much less hunting behind a good one.


Spoke to a relatively high status DD guy, and the conversation turned to a VDD-GNA member who did not support the dual registration fiasco with NAVHDA.

He said the member in question was wrong and that NAVHDA was "bad" for the DD. I asked if he had been to any NAVHDA events, and he said "no" and that there was no NAVHDA chapter anywhere near him.

Nuff said...

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby overit2 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:10 pm

Dang, I guess I won't know what to expect at my first training day w/a new 20 week old Weim pup then huh? lol

Whispers behind my back, eyeballing, whispers? ;)
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:42 pm

Sincerity, honesty, and genuine desire to learn and train your pup will get you by just fine. Don't know your experience level but it would be great if you have absorbed several different training materials before attending. It will give you a better ability to sort through the advice you might receive and those giving it, as well as what you might want to accomplish/work on at each training day.
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