Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ForestDump » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:56 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I don't agree with that. If a dog becomes unsuccessful enough times, it begins to lose intensity. They have to have some success to keep at maximum effectiveness.

As far as using them for other things like nose, agility, dock, etc; I don't like it. Look what happened to Irish Setters, Goldens, Springers and Poodles when you deny them the very things they were born to do. That's why I don't like using them for non hunting agendas. Use them for what they were bred for. Every minute you spend with them on obedience, agility, etc. is time that could be far better spent running blinds, working on honoring, relocations, flush on command, etc. There is just no real reason to do it.


Correct but that has nothing todo with the dogs happiness. The dog is just as happy digging for voles and fartin around. A dogs intensity or hunting ability is about the owner/handlers happiness.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:27 pm

Guess we'll have to disagree with that one. I don't think a dog is happier doing anything but hunting.

There was once a great retriever, at one time the high point retriever of all time, River Oaks Corky, owned by Mike Flannery. Corky was breeding a female once in the yard under Mike's supervision and a pheasant escaped from a flight pen. Corky hadn't locked up yet, jumped off the female, caught the pheasant, delivered it to Mike, jumped back on the female and finished the breeding. Hunting and birds supersede all else.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ForestDump » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:02 pm

That's instinct/desire a dog chases birds because he's bred to. In that case it wasn't even hunting, just pursuit of a loose pet bird. I love hunting and think dogs should do what they're bred for. But I know my dog would be just happy chasing any and every bird or fur that moved and never holding for a point. Or water retrieving bumpers for an hour.

I do get what some of you are saying about driven hunting dogs should be hunted. I agree. But at the same time, realistically how often do dogs even get to "hunt" a year. It's not that big of a deal as long as the people who don't take long walks with a shotgun just get their dogs out the dogs will be happy. The only difference between hiking and hunting is the gun.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:48 pm

ForestDump wrote:The only difference between hiking and hunting is the gun.

I'm not disagreeing but when you see a dog that will hunt until it is exhausted and willfully disregards concerns for its own health seems to me to be different than what it enjoys while going on a walk or digging for gophers. The gun does make a difference.


I remember River Oaks Corky ... I trialed in Nebraska in the early 70's and we all wanted pups out of him.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby Fun Dog » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:35 am

My dogs love to hunt, but they also enjoy sitting on the couch, playing retrieve games, going for walks, water retrieving. I doubt very much that when Lily is snuggled up next to me she is thinking, I wish I were hunting. Now pull out the gun and she's all for it.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:29 am

IF YOU SEE A DOG: Image
That will lay in a blind for hours in the freeIng snow, never rest, never stop looking for birds, never sleep, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.

IF YOU SEE A DOG:Image
That face full of quills or body ripped from barb wire or an animal encounter yet will never rest, never stop hunting, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.

IF YOU SEE A DOG:Image
That, in congestive heart failure, face and legs torn from the thickets of thorns, great chest rasping from the failing heart, so tired she has to sit or lay down on point yet will never quit, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.

IF YOU SEE A DOG: That water rolling in ice keeps retrieving every shot bird until shaking, it drops from hypothermia yet will never quit, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.

IF YOU SEE A DOG: That, body racked with leptospirosis, muscles deteriorated, back end so weak it can only drag itself, not walk, yet will never quit it's quest for birds, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.

If you honestly believe that there is any drive, any stimulus on this earth that replaces or is more important than the drive to find birds, then you understand nothing about a great dog. No amount of petting, no amount of playing, no food you can prepare will ever be greater than the simple desire to hunt. His bond to YOU will never be greater than the desire to hunt.

A great hunting dog is a very special animal and there are few that truly understand them but many that have been blessed with one of them.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ForestDump » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:01 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:IF YOU SEE A DOG:

That will lay in a blind for hours in the freeIng snow, never rest, never stop looking for birds, never sleep, then you will understand the fallacy of this argument.


Well we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this one. (good looking dog btw)

I don't even consider sitting in a blind or deer stand "hunting with a dog" dog is just trained to sit there. Great testament of obedience and willingness to please but again I don't think this has anything todo with making a dog's life happier than people who only hunt test or people who drive their dogs to jump off docks. The work is the key. Guys who train their dogs to sit still all day in a blind or hold a point for as long as necessary are taking advantage of the same traits and instincts (drive, biddability, intelligence, athleticism) as the ones training their dogs to chase bumpers or frisbees or only perform in tests.

Hunting isn't the end all be all. Upland/Waterfowl season is 5-6 months in some places, much less in others, and I don't know anybody who hunts every day of the season. This means dogs actually hunt only a small fraction of the year. This would make for a nation of deeply depressed canines.

Dogs don't know how to compare degrees of happiness of one thing to another. They live in the moment so if they learn that chasing cars is fun they are going to have a blast chasing cars. If they learn that bomb detection is fun they are going to have a (pun) doing that too. They know when you pick up your gun they're going to get to go outside and harass some animals. They know when you pick up a leash they're going to get to go outside and at the very least pee on their favorite spots. They get excited about the indicator. If the dog had its way it wouldn't hold points or sit in blinds. It wouldn't be confined to hunting season restrictions or lack of time in the field due to work, family, or money. They'd run around, bust birds, bark at everything and eat anything they could fit in their mouths.

A happy dog is one with a job or purpose that is stimulated/taxed both mentally and physically as often as possible. Doesn't matter how someone chooses to do this, just get it done.

Edit:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:If you honestly believe that there is any drive, any stimulus on this earth that replaces or is more important than the drive to find birds, then you understand nothing about a great dog. No amount of petting, no amount of playing, no food you can prepare will ever be greater than the simple desire to hunt. His bond to YOU will never be greater than the desire to hunt.

A great hunting dog is a very special animal and there are few that truly understand them but many that have been blessed with one of them.


This was never my stance. Hunting dogs are great, dogs with drive and determination are great. But dogs wanting to chase and kill more than it wants to eat, breed or sleep has nothing to do with a dog's happiness. These are just traits bred into them by man.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:30 am

"I don't even consider sitting in a blind or deer stand "hunting with a dog" dog is just trained to sit there. Great testament of obedience and willingness to please but again I don't think this has anything todo with making a dog's life happier than people who only hunt test or people who drive their dogs to jump off docks. The work is the key. Guys who train their dogs to sit still all day in a blind or hold a point for as long as necessary are taking advantage of the same traits and instincts (drive, biddability, intelligence, athleticism) as the ones training their dogs to chase bumpers or frisbees or only perform in tests. "

There is a HUGE difference between a dog that "sits in a blind" and a dog that HUNTS from a blind. Many dog's will just go to sleep. The great ones never stop scanning the sky for birds, are usually the first to see them, and never relax or sleep.

Do they enjoy getting petted and walks in a field. Sure. Does it ever replace hunting? No. My dogs are exposed to bird 12 months a year. We are still hunting grouse. They will then be trained the rest of the year. Worked on hand signals, multiple marks, obedience, honoring, steady to wsf, etc. It never stops. There is no good hunting dog EVER enjoys walks in a field more than the hunt. Even on walks, they are continually hunting. Even in the city.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby ForestDump » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:18 am

We're essentially saying the same thing. Good looking dog I'm sure he appreciates the time spent with you and vice versa.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby carramrod » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:23 am

I don't know if I could get mine to launch off a dock with a bumper, but if there was a crippled duck out there, he would run you over to get to it.
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:30 pm

carramrod wrote:I don't know if I could get mine to launch off a dock with a bumper, but if there was a crippled duck out there, he would run you over to get to it.


I don't even try... with most of my waterfowl hunting in flooded timber/ beaver ponds I don't encourage "dock dogs" entries. And, I don't think that they indicate any more drive than a dog that quickly enters water with all feet on the bottom.

I'm all for living vicariously through my pup... but, that is one place that I believe discretion is the better part of valor.

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:42 pm

carramrod wrote:I don't know if I could get mine to launch off a dock with a bumper, but if there was a crippled duck out there, he would run you over to get to it.


:D

GH - Enjoyed your photos. Especially the old duffer dog still giving its best. I know just how that is ...
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:46 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
carramrod wrote:I don't know if I could get mine to launch off a dock with a bumper, but if there was a crippled duck out there, he would run you over to get to it.


:D


I know a field trial dog who retired to the DockDogs hall of fame. I watched him go nuts on the dock a few months before he died of kidney failure at 17 years old. SOME hunting dogs will put equal amounts of effort into anything they do.

He's having a miserable time... clearly...

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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby gwp4me2 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:20 pm

I like a nice meal
I'm happy watching football on tv.
I'm more happy watching NBA on tv.
I'm even more happy watching a good hunting dvd on tv.
Even happier out training the dogs
Better yet is being out in nature on a hike.
and even though I can be happy doing any of those things. NONE of them are more enjoyable and make me happier than being out with my dog, shotgun in hand, and getting a really nice sequence on a wild bird. There is also a very good chance I'm thinking about hunting during all those other activities. Don't you believe that dogs don't remember and dream. Ever see a dog 'chasing' while asleep? I have.
Do you wonder if that dock-diving dog or the agility dog are pretending they are hunting?
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Re: Versatile dogs for everything but hunting...

Postby TobyTx » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Willie T wrote:
ForestDump wrote:
Dogs are just as happy running around in the field all day coming home with zero birds as they are running around and coming home with a full bag.
[/quote

I've got an old bird dog that would disagree with that. She will growl at you if you miss!
Willie


I disagree too. The searching, finding, retrieving, are more enjoyable then just running in empty fields. I assume running you mean searching and hunting? Then i might agree with that.

Also, when you mention hunting, people just talking about upland mostly on this forum.

Are those games as enjoyable to a hunting dog? No.

How often can you do hunt test? I agree dogs need a job and those other activities can give you and the dog something to do during the off season. I don't see how those can challenge a hunting dogs, nose, stamina, memory, intelligence, like actually wild game can, thus making them more enjoyable for the dog.
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