Selling off Federal Land

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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Meridiandave » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:13 am

As a former TU President, Founder of USAC, a veteran of the Utah stream access debacle, and someone with 16 years of land acquisition experience for local government agencies, I will never support the transfer of Federal lands to the states.

First, the original argument for the land transfer advocates is at best gross legal incompetence, at worat a flat out lie. Some of the early arguements argument from Ken Ivory (ALC) was that the feds had violated the enabling act. This is where we see such nonsense as "take back" our lands or return them to State ownership. The Enabling act says no such thing. It actually says the exact opposite. The states clearly give up any right to Federal lands. In addition Utah reaffirmed this position in the States Constitution. When someone has to build there argument on a lie, I was taught to beware.

In some circles in the transfer movement. The argument is put forth that the Federal Government cannot own land. This is nonsense and completely contradicted by the property clause in the US Constitution. This position is held by Ammon Bundy and the most radical members of this movement. It was popularized by Cleon Skousen 20 years ago in a book called the 5,000 year leap. While Cleon was always considered a crackpot in the Mormon community, his work was popularized awhile ago by Glen Beck. It has been cited regularly by right wing extremists.

The transfer advocates say that they do not intend to sale the land. We contend it is a flat out lie. It is questionable if the states can afford to manage the land if given it for free. If they have to pay, states cannot make the numbers work. The only way out of that mess is to divest the asset. We believe that is why public land will be sold off.

I have a close friend in the Utah Legislature. He tried to sale that the land should not be given to the states for free. Then what price should the State pay? The events of the last two days are to make it so Congress can transfer the land without any requirement to receive compensation or even to look at it. It took 24 hours for Bishop to show his hand. If we allow a transfer to the State it is only a matter of time until we lose it.

I would love to write more, but it is difficult on my phone.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:57 pm

Meridiandave wrote:I would love to write more, but it is difficult on my phone.


it would be interesting to hear more
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby bhennessy » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:33 pm

I would also very much like to hear more too.

I would argue the states have another, actually additional, route they can take when appropriating our land: continue to use our tax dollars to maintain it. They will take the land, divest parts of it to developers while at the same time moving to transfer our tax dollars into their own coffers so as to, they will argue, "continue to offer public access to non-residents".
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Meridiandave » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:52 pm

To fully understand what is going on here. People need to understand that the land owned by the Federal Government is owned by every American. We own the resources, the access and the property itself. The Property Clause of the Constitution was put in to specifically give Congress control of the disposition of such lands. The courts have ruled repeatedly over the last 200 years that power is "without limitation." while it was originally the policy of the United States to sale this land off and use the funds to run the country. The courts and Congress can also make reservations and withdraw land from sale. Starting in the 1800's with Forest reserves, there has been a move from disposal to preservation.

The idea of the transfer movement is to get the "Trillions" of dollars in resources out of the hands of the public and into the hands of the private sector.

If you don't believe me look at the words of ALEC https://www.alec.org/model-policy/resol ... e-states// This was an official GOP resolution. The irony here is that there is no mechanism to pay off the National Debt with a no cost transfer to the States.

As you can see from ALEC info the real goal has been revealed. What the transfer advocates are literally asking the American people to do is give up there ownership interest in the land, free of compensation, and trust that it would not be sold.

What concerns me is that ALEC AMD other land transfer advocates slightly changed their position that there was no support of divestiture of public lands, the slightly changed their tune. They now advocate only transfer to the States. I believe this to be a classic bait and switch to make their goals more palatable to the public.

We, in the hunting/fishing community should believe what they said the first time and do everything we can to stop it.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:05 pm

Meridiandave wrote:
We, in the hunting/fishing community should believe what they said the first time and do everything we can to stop it.


Thank you for sharing your insights and expertise on the issue. My hope when I posted it was to initiate some or all to contact their members in Congress and express their views. I have and will again as often as needed.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:44 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I expect a large number of us utilize Federal and State Public Land for the recreation that is near and dear to our hearts. I am a small Gov conservative but I do not support this movement to sell off Federal Public lands and or transfer control to underfunded State Agencies. We need unspoiled places to hike, train, hunt, fish, camp ...


AverageGuy wrote:. My State has the best funded Conservation Department in the world and yet they get a lot of things wrong and have lost their ability to listen it seems. Now the R majority in every branch of our State Gov threatens to take their funding away which is not the right answer either.


That would be Missouri, where the Conservation Department was purposely set up in the thirties by folks like Aldo Leopold (and my father) doing their best to keep politicians from getting their hands on conservation dollars. That was then of course. http://www.kansascity.com/sports/outdoo ... 27909.html

AverageGuy wrote:Thank you for sharing your insights and expertise on the issue. My hope when I posted it was to initiate some or all to contact their members in Congress and express their views. I have and will again as often as needed.


Dude... it's how you vote
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:30 pm

This is a little bit of a hijack, but you can listen to USAC's arguments on stream access here: https://www.utcourts.gov/opinions/streams/sup/
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:42 pm

and this is as well, but worth the few minutes it takes to watch : https://youtu.be/dr-3AzFevlE
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby woodboro » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:09 am

I am hoping to buy 160 acres , that would become a state donated controlled dog training property.

I am looking for donations here to buy this federal land. :lol:
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:35 pm

This Thread had some discussion of the merits or not of transferring Federal Land to States. This Video makes some excellent points about that and I encourage all to please watch it.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/randy-new ... gn=wosfeed
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:42 pm

AverageGuy wrote:This Thread had some discussion of the merits or not of transferring Federal Land to States. This Video makes some excellent points about that and I encourage all to please watch it.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/randy-new ... gn=wosfeed



I'd say that's a great way to spend three minutes.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby twistedoak » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 pm

dosent matter anymore
the bills were passed.

the first round of sales are ready to begin.
may you have some spare change around and been thinking of a cabin
or maybe a golf course ...or a private ski resort?
of course no self respecting ski resort or golf course is complete with out a casino , hotel and parking
http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/articles/public-land-for-sale-here-are-some-of-the-33-million-acres-being-eyed-for-disposal-w463372
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:57 pm

Hr. 621 has not passed. It has only been introduced and referred to Committee.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:49 am

Meridiandave wrote:Hr. 621 has not passed. It has only been introduced and referred to Committee.


Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I hope the call to action will turn this around. We need to be active and heard.
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Re: Selling off Federal Land

Postby Meridiandave » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:39 am

Based on feedback from hunters and fisherman Chaffettz is pulling his bill today. Way to go guys.
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