Wind drift on a retrieve

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Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:49 am

Just though I'd run this past everyone... does anyone's pup account for wind drift on a retrieve?

I don't count anomalies, so this comes over a couple years of watching, and my pup will alter her course on a long retrieve to account for the wind.

She always meets the object, never seems to have to chase from behind.

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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Willie T » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:40 pm

3ds, this does not answer your question but I'm sure it applies. When training for long blinds, most dogs will drift with the wind as well as terrain. Honest lines usually have to be trained for. The best marking dogs I have been around have the innate ability to miss on the downwind side when they miss.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby woodboro » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:27 am

PM me
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:08 am

Willie T wrote:3ds, this does not answer your question but I'm sure it applies. When training for long blinds, most dogs will drift with the wind as well as terrain. Honest lines usually have to be trained for. The best marking dogs I have been around have the innate ability to miss on the downwind side when they miss.


Actually, it's not on blind retrieves. It is on long launches with a RetrievRTrainer. I don't think she's winding them.

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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Willie T » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:06 pm

3ds, for the sake of discussion about retrieving style, this is my take. Dogs who's eyes are their first default, retrieving game that is marked down, generally take a true line. Dogs who default to the nose first, cheat to the downwind side. (The easiest way to recognize, is the dog who instinctively hunts deep of the fall when the wind is at his back) The true great ones are somewhat ambidextrous and combine eyes and nose so well that most any combination of distance, cover, and terrain is usually handled with ease. Field experience teaches, most long sailers are also runners, and so the tendency develops to cheat the wind on long marks.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby woodboro » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:16 pm

3drahthaars wrote:Just though I'd run this past everyone... does anyone's pup account for wind drift on a retrieve?

I don't count anomalies, so this comes over a couple years of watching, and my pup will alter her course on a long retrieve to account for the wind.

She always meets the object, never seems to have to chase from behind.

3ds


3drahthaars wrote:
Actually, it's not on blind retrieves. It is on long launches with a RetrievRTrainer. I don't think she's winding them.

3ds


Can the dog visually see it ??? Then why the drift ?

I am confused :!:
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:36 am

Woodboror,

Holding a line is a critical part of good retrieving skills. As Willit describes a crossing can push a dog of line. Same as a dog having to run along a sidehill, they will tend to fall off.
Often a brush row , ditch , or road will cause a dog to stop short of the factor, causing it to fail on the retriever.

Its a very significant component of the retriever games and has very practical applications if the field.

Hers just one example of why good marking skills are important.

A lot of people on this site would argues that its very important for the dog to get to the area of the fall quickly so the bird sent have a chance to escape. Many will argue against a dog being steady for this reason. So you sail a rooster 200 yards away or a chukar 300 yards down the canyon. The dog that can get to the area of the fall as quickly as possible will have the best chance of recovery.

If you understand the complications of retrieving you can train to greatly improve the skill.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby woodboro » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:14 am

Quite frankly , a utility dog I would never expect to take a direct line as far as a 22 report launcher can throw.
I have only seen one dog do that , and it was not consistent even though his owner launched the bumper from it all the time in the exact spot.
Ult. type dogs use nose first, and it's pretty hard to deter them from not using it and doing a perfect direct line.
One dog I had took a line pretty well, but at a certain point would break it off and do a search. (He did more than enough for me using the line)

As a retriever , lab, chessie etc... I would assume that would happen taking a direct line.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby woodboro » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:16 am

Kiger2 wrote:Woodboror,

Holding a line is a critical part of good retrieving skills. As Willit describes a crossing can push a dog of line. Same as a dog having to run along a sidehill, they will tend to fall off.
Often a brush row , ditch , or road will cause a dog to stop short of the factor, causing it to fail on the retriever.

Its a very significant component of the retriever games and has very practical applications if the field.

Hers just one example of why good marking skills are important.

A lot of people on this site would argues that its very important for the dog to get to the area of the fall quickly so the bird sent have a chance to escape. Many will argue against a dog being steady for this reason. So you sail a rooster 200 yards away or a chukar 300 yards down the canyon. The dog that can get to the area of the fall as quickly as possible will have the best chance of recovery.

If you understand the complications of retrieving you can train to greatly improve the skill.


On land ?? OP I believe was talking about water.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:44 am

I don't see anything about water in the op's post.

Doesn't matter whether land or water. Both have factors, some just different.

If you don't understand the things that cause dogs problems when retrieving, you cant understand the benefits of training for them. Thats why its important to get educated on the issue.

Im not sure what a utility dog is? They all need to retrieve, they all can have their retrieving improved.

As to your friends dog not taking the straight line to the dummy launcher. There could easily be something that happened there that is causing the dog to run the curve.

The purpose of teaching marking is for the dog to trust his eyes to get him to where he should use his nose. Make sense? A dog that will not trust his eyes will lose more birds.
Especially if you have no ability to handle him to the area of the fall.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:29 am

Figured I'd chime in since this has not gone the direction I intended.

FYI, I was just trying to start a conversation on what would cause a dog to seem to compensate for the wind and "intercept" a visible retrieve/fall that drifted 30-50 feet from the fall on open water because of the wind.

I didn't see or intimate any problems... again, just observation. It appeared that the dog figured something out, and I was looking for other observations or anecdotes from those who may or may not have seen similar behavior.

I don't live/hunt in a location teeming with wild game such that multiple marks are a necessity... and, I don't really care.

I don't train to take a straight line or worry about curving, so long as it is downwind... i.e. I don't want my dog to become too reliant on visuals... NOSE is primary. And, so long as my dog gets downwind I know she'll succeed.

Bless you guys and your straight lines that are essential to retriever games, but I derive more pleasure in watching a dog use its nose to work out a problem.

Best regards and have a Happy Thanksgiving,

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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:10 am

3d's.

If I understand your question better now, the bird has hit the water and has drifted with the wind and the dog has intercepted it. Open water. Two things come to mind, the dog simply saw the bird. 2) if he couldn't see it, the same wind that pushed the duck pushed the dog.

As to straight lines, you need to ignore the major media outlets about them only being useful in ret games. The dogs nose is clearly its most important asset. But if the nose cant get to where the bird is, it is a useless. I can teach a dog to overcome factors and trust its eyes to go where the bird went down as quickly as possible. Why on earth would you not want a dog to run or swim quickly to where it saw the saw bird go down and not be fooled by some factor?

And talk about rewarding. Its no big deal for a dog to use its nose. It is very rewarding to watch a dog over come a factor that you trained it to do and get the area of the fall and THEN use its nose. Or bypass the scent of an area where the dog previously picked up a bird and go directly to where the last bird went down.

The major media outlets have you convinced that a good retrieving dog doesnt use its nose. What we train for and expect is for the dog to mark the fall, go directly there and then start hunting. Ideally they get the exact spot and its a short hunt. But if they miss the mark, they will start hunting the area of the fall and increase their search area until they pick up scent. Thats how it is supposed to work. should the dog misjudge the fall, we can handle the dog to the area. But its always more efficient for the dog to mark the bird itself. This would be the same on land and water.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Willie T » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:43 pm

Woodboro,
the confidence and ability of a dog to mark a fall, and take a line to the area of the fall, on a long bird, before breaking down to hunt, is a learned skill. If you don't train the long bird, most will break down and hunt at the range they have been worked at. We all set the bar differently, depending on how we hunt, and what we want out of our dogs. My hunting is around 50/50 upland/waterfowl, including a lot of geese. I am working with a new 4 month old pp pup out of cedarwoods. I expect my dogs to sit tight and mark the fall(including sailers), then go when sent, or honor the other dogs. I have the pup driving out 300-400 yards on simple marks(flat ground, low cover) to gain the range he will need. He enjoys opening it up and going. After force fetching in a couple more months, we will refine, and add cover, terrain, etc. then learn to handle. When we started, he wanted to hunt after 50 yards. Right now he is learning to believe what he sees and use his hunting instincts when he gets there. I like an efficient retriever that can pick up what I shoot, as quickly as possible, while I watch the show. I just got home from 2 weeks in North Dakota where the pup pointed 14 wild pheasant,(he busted several too), hunting isolated cover to help him pin the birds, but the highlight for me was seeing a 3 1/2 month old pup mark a wing tipped snow goose , then boil out a little over 100 yards and tackle the runner, without hesitation, when released. (The pup did yield to a 25mph crosswind, and took a banana line to the bird). Precocious pup. I was high fiving myself!
3ds, sorry for the hijack.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby gwp4me2 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:33 pm

So many variables in this discussion. 'Taking a line on a marked retrieve' really only applies to multiples doesn't it? On a marked retrieve the dog already has the line. 'Taking a line is quicker'? Only some of the time. Swimming along the shore to keep the line is much slower(probably) than getting out of the water and running the bank to get close. Even when I send a dog on a line I'm usually trying to get the dog just downwind of the object(almost always a bird whether recently shot or out of the freezer if training). It is great to be able to handle a dog that is on his way to a retrieve but I certainly don't want the dog to ignore everything on it's way. I've had pheasants run back towards me after tipping a wing. We hunt ducks in a river. Sometimes a wounded bird is upstream, usually down, maybe straight across.... I know my eyes are old but how do you get an exact mark 200 yards away in a crp field to know whether the dog has gone far enough or too far? What if the sailing bird when over a little rise? I want the dog to stop and try and make a retrieve on every potential spot and if I know he needs to go farther I will send him farther. If he is on a mark he isn't on a 'line' I have given. If there is a 'poison' bird it is only poison if I know it is there and send him on. If he can get there 3 times faster running a little off line than swimming great. If the dog is trained for 'over' then let him use the quickest route to get close however he chooses and then turn him to the bird. A perfectly straight line should never trump a fast efficient recovery.
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Re: Wind drift on a retrieve

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:06 am

Willie T,
EXACTLY!

Gwp4me,
Taking a line on mark, applies to every mark. Singles or multiples.

Sometimes the straight line isn't faster. But with a well trained dog I can select what I want. In the field I can send the dog on the bank or make it swim.

At a trial the straight line is valued as a measure of trainability. They often make the straight line very hard. Often when hunting the straight line is also very hard and the BEST path for the dog to get the bird.

Your example of the birds sailing over a rise or out in a cep field is excellent. By training, we can improve the dogs marking to the point where the vast majority of the time it can recognize that the bird is over a rise or far it needs to run before the search. Given those same examples, what are the chances an untrained dog has to make the retrieve??

Your example of running past the wounded rooster has some limited merit. I would suspect that the bird returning towards the hunter is pretty rare. If the birds a long way off, it is doubtful that an untrained dog would get anywhere near the crippled bird in the first place. and lastly, if the dog does pass the scent it will end up in the area of the fall and pick up the scent and find the bird. We don't get all the birds, sometimes the birds just win. But I can assure after 30 years of comparing trained and untrained dogs in the field. The trained dogs prove themselves more valuable.

Go watch a retriever trial. You will understand how a dog can be trained to mark efficiently. In fact I would wager most dogs will remember the birds locations better than you. 3 or 4 birds up to 3 or 400 yards.

When a bird goes over a rise, a straight line is extremely valuable. If the dog stops to investigate a wrong scent, and you have to send him again, you need that dog to take a very straight cast from you since you cant see to correct him. Ill give you an example, not a mark but it will support my point. I hit a chukar it sails over a rise and drops about 300 adds away. Dog didn't see it . I line the dog and send. she's off line so I have to stop her (your dog just stopped at a wrong decent and you have to resend.) I stop her on top of the rise and i have one shot to get this bird.I give her the cast and she takes off. My friend is up on the hill and he watches her take a nice line another 100 yards to get the bird. Thats rewarding!
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