Political - We've come full circle

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby hicntry » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:17 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Hersher

I see when your arguments fail you resort to name calling.

I am the "fool" smart enough to go to a great value community college, work at a high paying self employed blue collar occupation earning $20 an hour when minimum wage was $3 something to pay for it, graduated with zero debt, had a successful career and retired at age 50 with zero debt, living on a farm in game country now.

I worked 60 to 100 hour work weeks throughout my career, worked 3 farms, raised, trained and hunted bird dogs, archery hunted big game in multiple states ..

Pardon me if I scoff at your notion of Hustle.

As for being a "fool", I have gone bird hunting with my pup every morning this week. Took a great whitetail buck last week. I am huntin' fool but no one who knows me accuses me of otherwise.

You are just flailing at the wind in frustration over your own poor decisions. The sooner you stop blaming strangers on the internet for them and get going with what you can productively do about it now, the better you will be. If I can help you with that I am glad to do so, but blaming the likes of me for your situation is both fruitless and wrong.


+1
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:36 pm

Hersher,

You are incorrect to claim I resorted to name calling as you have done. I have not.

Sorry you rolled the dice on a "top tier" college at multiples the cost of much more affordable options and it has not worked out well so far.

Perhaps it still will. If we can stop doubling our national debt every 8 years and restore some economic growth, your generation can prosper.

If you care to read my posts in this thread you will see you are also wrong to claim I offer no solutions. I have a lot of ideas on how to reduce education costs and put some to them to print above.

And that would be my overriding point on the cost of education. We need a different much less expensive approach than the sprawling lavish campus model that has priced itself out of the market. That is a major reason I oppose the proposal of "free" college. It does nothing to reduce the escalating costs. In fact it is the Federal loan program that has allowed so many to rush headlong into hopeless debt. If people would stop signing up for unworkable levels of tuition then the Universities would be forced to reduce their prices/costs or cease to exist.

Making it "free' feeds the problem. I want to solve it.

I hope you can settle down and have a truly Happy Thanksgiving.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:57 pm

Chadwick wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:And I am living proof that an education in a viable field at five times less the cost is more than adequate.


If you could please provide a list of "viable" fields that the majority of college students could get into that would provide solid well-paying jobs for them for the next 50 years (like yours did for you) that would be appreciated.


Chadwick here is the challenge you posed.

The 50 year criteria is ridiculous as is the suggestion I enjoyed it. I ended up performing job functions which were tangential to my degree program for the bulk of my career. I did so because I saw the opportunity and pursued it. Then that area eventually waned and I moved into yet another area of focus. No 50 year guarantee for this guy.

Do a google search and answer your own question. You will just argue with it if I do it.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby Chadwick » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:02 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
Chadwick wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:And I am living proof that an education in a viable field at five times less the cost is more than adequate.


If you could please provide a list of "viable" fields that the majority of college students could get into that would provide solid well-paying jobs for them for the next 50 years (like yours did for you) that would be appreciated.


Chadwick here is the challenge you posed.

The 50 year criteria is ridiculous as is the suggestion I enjoyed it. I ended up performing job functions which were tangential to my degree program for the bulk of my career. I did so because I saw the opportunity and pursued it. Then that area eventually waned and I moved into yet another area of focus. No 50 year guarantee for this guy.

Do a google search and answer your own question. You will just argue with it if I do it.


My point was that choosing what is presently considered a viable field doesn't matter. I just picked 50 years randomly. I have hired plenty of people with degrees completely unrelated to the work I was hiring them for. The degree doesn't matter that much for many entry level jobs.
Chadwick
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:56 pm

There are currently fields which are uncrowded and in demand. A person graduating today in those fields can land a good job in a hurry. There are others which are already too crowded and pay little even for those that land a job. And yet we have young people incurring large debt pursuing those degree programs. If Federal loan programs were financially screened, as any commercial loans are, they would not be made on those degree programs for which the employment prospects and pay are dismal. It would be doing those kids a favor frankly.

The problem with Economics is that Politics can never overcome it. Economics wins out every time. Some cannot accept that.

Your argument seems to be: "well economic conditions will change over time so why even bother."

Of course a profession/job skill in demand today may not be as in demand 20 years down the road, but to use that as an excuse to not even use the current information available at the time of choosing a profession is extremely unproductive. If you cannot find a job when you graduate waiting for 10 years or so for your profession to come back into demand is a really bad financial/life strategy.

If you are hiring for a position for which the degree does not matter and any will do, then I fully expect that job does not pay very well.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby hicntry » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:03 pm

Question for Hersher. You keep bringing up wars. I am betting you never served a day in the military. You chose running up your debt. Back in the days of milk and honey, the draft was mandatory, and not voluntary like you have it. Another thing you are crying about is the baby boomers are burdening you with a life time of debt. You folks always leave out the fact that the baby boomers contributed more to SS that any other generation because of the numbers. I have been self employed since my mid 30's so I had to pay 15+%....same as the other self employed folks. You have made comments about how smart you are....why don't you shuck the shackles and start your own business? Then you have too own your bad decisions. Every generation has it's own problems to solve.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby gopokes » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:10 pm

There are still a few self-made folks out there, no question about it. If you're one of them, hats off to you. My Mom and her sisters grew up in a dirt floor hack in southern Colorado. They came up to Wyoming with the railroad in the 50's and started a new life in a squalorous shack in an unfamiliar town. Mom's dad was in jail, so my grandma cleaned houses and when she was old enough, my mom waited tables. She bought, on her tips, the following, at different points throughout the 60's: 2 very small (900 sq/ft and 500 sq/ft) houses for her family to live in, one NEW car for her brother, and put herself through secretarial school. My mom is a total badass, no question about it. But that story doesn't get off the ground today. It's a very different world. H123 - I feel you bro - keep fighting the good fight, our country needs folks like you. (Cue the music.....*spoiler alert* - a few of you might want to start looking for the 'eyeroll' emoji) Although crucial and noble in every way, we need more than machinists, welders, laborers, CDLs, used car salesmen, real estate sharks, roughnecks, small business owners, contractors, subcontractors, large business owners, televangelists, etc etc etc to keep this country great. We also need intellectuals, engineer geeks, artists, techy-weirdos, science lab rats, musicians, drama-nerds, astronauts, brain surgeons, MRSA researchers (superbugs are scary - somebody smarter than me is going to have to tackle that one) hopelessly optimistic youthful ideologues, etc. etc. If it's money you want, go learn to weld, or get your real estate license - my pipeline buddy makes a crapload of money living in man camps all across the US of A. Wayyy more than me. But instead I suggest chasing your dreams and digging deep - the life experts on here, the 'told ya so's' and the guys who learned how to think before anyone taught them anything may have different advice. Your road will be more difficult than you deserve perhaps, and yes, some jobs are the chit today and obsolete tomorrow. I hope that isn't your case - I haven't read every single post. Good luck to you - and to the rest of us - where preparation and luck converge, opportunity is born. Both absolutely matter.
gopokes
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:24 pm

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:28 pm

I am all for anyone following their dreams. I did.

Just fund them yourself and wear the consequences of your decisions without complaint on others who had no hand in it, is what I ask.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:56 pm

gopokes wrote: the guys who learned how to think before anyone taught them anything may have different advice. .


Seems that crack might be directed at me. Perhaps some background will help.

I started my own lawn care business at the age of 11. Used and repaid debt to buy the push mower. Bought a horse and motorcycle with my own money by the age of 15.

I also worked at the stable where I kept my horse. Learned a lot about carpentry, some basic mechanics, animal husbandry, job scheduling, dealing with the general public.

I also started working at Montgomery Wards at age 16. Worked in Lawn & Garden, Hardware, Plumbing, Electrical and the Paint Department. Learned more practical knowledge, more dealing with the public and both good and bad management/bosses as well.

Then I quit that and became a self employed painter. Marketed myself, bought tools, did the work, made excellent money ...

So yea I absolutely learned to think before I entered College.

And I think the lack of work experience for most of todays youth clear up and until they graduate from College does them a huge disservice.

And explains a lot of the whining when they finally do begin working at the ripe age of 20 something.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:13 pm

Hershey, you sob because we've been in war and recession since you were born? What about the rest of us? I was born in the Second World War, in grade school during Korea, in High School and College During Vietnam, in business during Desert Storm and beyond. For God sake, we've been at war since I was conceived!! I've been enveloped in for for my entire 71 years. Recession? I bought this business at the end of 85, the end of a recession. We go into recession about every ten years or so. This last one was a doozie. In the type of business I own, we lost 30% of all stores in the U.S. A business owner works 8-12 hours a day, six days a week to maintain, grow that business and prosper. We take huge gambles that could cost us everything we've worked our entire lives for if we're wrong. What were you doing when we were battling for our lives in this last recession? Sitting in your snug dorm room and going to school, perhaps studying why the rest of us were going broke. I was losing over $20,000.00 a year during that "recession" but we pulled out of it and are all the stronger now. You'll have to learn that. If you take a job that doesn't work out what have you lost? Not a damned thing. You just apply for another one. You and all the sniveling little college graduates that are newbies to the employment world have absolutely no idea what sacrifice, hard work, failure, and fear are all about. But you'll learn.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby hicntry » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:42 pm

Here is a different perspective for those that are complaining. You think you all got it tough and it is the older generations fault. If you see it as tough now, wait till a few wives decide they can do better and leave with 65% of the income and that house. Y'all think it is tough now....what will you do if there is a hic cup like a divorce. You guys really don't know what tough is yet. Add child support for 18 years to those student loans an really having to support yourself. All kinds of unforeseen things are waiting out there for you.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby jlw034 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:56 pm

Man, a guy leaves to go shoot birds for a week and this thread explodes!!! Haha

Trying to get caught up. Seems like it's a lot of the old breed vs the up and comers. The self-mades vs the gimme-gimme-gimme's. And both sides have good points.

Being that I'm on the leading edge of the millennials (ish), I do think that we've got the cards severely stacked against us.

Fact: Higher education is not nearly as affordable as it once was. This makes it much riskier to get into good paying jobs, unlike our parents generation. The trades schools are a great option, and I think they should be much more prominent in career guidance to our highschoolers.

Fact: The uneducated cannot get by through working long hours at low level jobs. First off, the pay has not kept up with inflation. Secondly, the near future is going to slap us with levels of automation we have never seen before. That will take away entry level jobs (eg: burger flippers) making it much more difficult to move up the ladder (eg: manager). It's already happening in the John Deere plants many of my family members work in, the ones that haven't been laid off. The big plants in Waterloo, IA used to completely prop up that community. Now they are withering away...and I don't see anything that will replace them. This applies to almost any manufacturing/production job.

Fact: The boomers and their parents, on the whole, are woefully unprepared for retirement. It sounds like many of you older folks have your stuff in order, which is great. But the majority of your peers do not. That burden is going to fall to us. We will have to pay for their health care. We will have to pay for their necessary expenditures. Why? Because they will vote the people into office that promise them that.

Fact: Something serious is changing in our global climate. It's not Santa Claus, it does not require belief. It is real. Example: If I feel sick, and 9/10 doctors say my many years of smoking gave me cancer and I'm in trouble, and the 10th doctor says cancer is just cells in my body dividing, a normal process, and I'm fine...I'm going to believe in the 90% of experts telling me the same thing. It kills me that the majority of my elders just don't believe that anything is changing, and even is it was it couldn't be due to man. Look at all the incredible natural treasures man has destroyed.

There's more, but I'll stop there. And I'm not writing off problems that my parent's generation faced. I can't imagine the doom the hovered during the cold war. And there have obviously been market downturns before. I doubt that I will ever need to memorize my draft number, fearing that it will be called.

But when I hear so many folks writing off my generation as whiners, lazy, looking for handouts, and cry-babies, it really irks me. Some, of course, are. But the majority are like me. We want a good job, and nice house, a happy family. We want the chance to do well...but we see the writing on the wall...and it makes us nervous.
User avatar
jlw034
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Moneysota

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:42 pm

Don't worry about us boomers; we'll all be croaked within the next 10-15 years!
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby jlw034 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:46 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Don't worry about us boomers; we'll all be croaked within the next 10-15 years!


Yeah, but I actually like some of you salty SOBs!!!!
User avatar
jlw034
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Moneysota

Re: Political - We've come full circle

Postby Chadwick » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:54 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Hershey, you sob because we've been in war and recession since you were born? What about the rest of us? I was born in the Second World War, in grade school during Korea, in High School and College During Vietnam, in business during Desert Storm and beyond. For God sake, we've been at war since I was conceived!! I've been enveloped in for for my entire 71 years. Recession? I bought this business at the end of 85, the end of a recession. We go into recession about every ten years or so. This last one was a doozie. In the type of business I own, we lost 30% of all stores in the U.S. A business owner works 8-12 hours a day, six days a week to maintain, grow that business and prosper. We take huge gambles that could cost us everything we've worked our entire lives for if we're wrong. What were you doing when we were battling for our lives in this last recession? Sitting in your snug dorm room and going to school, perhaps studying why the rest of us were going broke. I was losing over $20,000.00 a year during that "recession" but we pulled out of it and are all the stronger now. You'll have to learn that. If you take a job that doesn't work out what have you lost? Not a damned thing. You just apply for another one. You and all the sniveling little college graduates that are newbies to the employment world have absolutely no idea what sacrifice, hard work, failure, and fear are all about. But you'll learn.


Things is same as they ever wuz.

Also, the billy goats are also wonder when you are coming back to the bridge:)
Chadwick
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests