Most Influential Griff?

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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Meridiandave » Mon May 07, 2018 12:08 am

orhunter wrote:Highlander:

Thanks for the video. Quite a collection of really crappy coats. Don’t understand French???


Since some of these dogs were Korthals dogs. I am curious if you dont like all of the coats or just the few that were a little shaggier near the front. Some of the coats are pretty good, particularly lAter in the video.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Mon May 07, 2018 8:08 am

I didn't mean to say they were all bad.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Meridiandave » Mon May 07, 2018 12:21 pm

Harvey, fair enough.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Mon May 07, 2018 2:37 pm

I went back through all the posts and at least a few of us are Westerners. The theme here is "most influential." What about dogs that had the potential to be influential but were never used? Gotta be a train load of such dogs. An example is Gus, owned by Lance Carbone in Boise. This is a Des Chien dog I brought from Griffconsin in 2009. To this day, he hasn't produced a single litter. Good intentions gone astray. I'm so disappointed nothing ever came of the effort I put into improving the gene pool out this way. More evidence folks put more weight on a VC than a great pedigree.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby hicntry » Mon May 07, 2018 3:31 pm

This has been a good read and raises some questions in my mind. Are there any breeders of griffs in recent years that will be looked back upon as great? Let's say, looked back upon like Elhew and Miller in the EP world?
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Mon May 07, 2018 6:31 pm

Hicntry:

There isn't a type of competition designed for the Griff to bring that kind of notoriety to breeders or the breed. The French has to crossbreed to make the Griff competitive in their venue. The true Griff is just a huntin' dog.....and your best buddy.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Meridiandave » Mon May 07, 2018 8:33 pm

I agree with Harvey on this one. There is not a competition that lends itself well for griff's.

I also think one of the issues is that the dog does not take well to being kenneled so it is hard to produce the sheer numbers required to be that influential of a kennel.

The other issue is that some bigger kennels produce "dual" dogs. They say show and hunting. Glacier is such a kennel. Fireside was and so was herrenhuesen.

Hunting kennels are more small breeders producing a couple of litters a year. However, there are some very good dogs being produced in the midwest that have helped out the genetics of kennels out here.

I think Stoney Ridge has a real chance to be a very influential breeder if they are not already. I know several breeders out here who are actively working to get the genetics in their kennels. Virtually all hunting breeders I know have been getting more midwestern and french blood in their kennels, even if they do not test.

I like what I have seen out of some of the other midwestern kennels like Griffman's, but I have not personally seen his dogs.

Harvey will not like this, but I really like what Frank at hun hill has been doing recently as well as George Decosta at the hunting griff. Between the two of them they have a good number of dogs and can make a difference. Of course I am biased because I train with Frank a lot and George allows NAHVDA to train at his place.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Tue May 08, 2018 11:34 am

Good stuff MD....

Probably the best "show" dog I've ever seen was a Fireside pup. Little girl had it all. Harsh dense coat, drive, athleticism, size, nose, smarts, temperament, everything in place. Had a chance to own her but she'd been spayed so no use to me. Odd you have Herrenhausen on your list? I've seen quite a few of them and owned one.

Some of the best dogs comes from guys who produce only one or two litters ever, not in a single year. I wouldn't call them "breeders" at all. They just happen to have great dogs with great pedigrees and produce a litter under peer pressure to do so. Once in a lifetime opportunity sort of thing.

Stonyridge has been building good dogs for quite a while. John is certainly not a new kid on the block. Don't know when he got started but have known about him for close to 20 years. Probably produced more good dogs in the modern era than anyone else. One of the few guys I could call up and say, send me a pup out of your next litter or, next time you breed Fifi send me a pup, and get a great dog with absolutely no research. That's what trust is all about.

I admire Frank for his enthusiasm. We need more guys like him left of the Mississippi. Looking forward to seeing him in another month. Hope he brings Jacque, love that guy, wish I owned him.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Meridiandave » Tue May 08, 2018 7:13 pm

Orhunter,

Herrenhuesen, I can't for the life of me figure out what Barbara is doing. Sometimes she runs dogs NAHVDA and AKC, sometimes she doesn't run NAHVDA. I have two books with me and I am able to research a lot of old stuff. Her breeding plan seems to be all over the place.

You know there are a few people making things better. Broken Bow out of IF are hunters and testing their dogs. They are scoring well. Versatile Rex (tied to the hunting Griffon Kennel) is becoming a go to dog. He is a great looking dog who hunts hard and is doing well at both Awpgca latest event and prize II in Utility. It dropped the duck to shake off on the pond work and dropped and picked up the duck on the drag, ot it would have been a prize I dog.

I feel lucky and got a great dog out of a lesser known breeding. We will see how I do in Utility come August.

One question, you do realize Jacque is Mr. Brown?
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Tue May 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Jacque = Mr. Brown. Yes.

I don't need a little bolt of lightning at my age...... We could shoot a lot of pheasants together.....on flat ground.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Stretch » Wed May 09, 2018 8:11 am

When I was looking for a pup I looked at a couple mr.brown bred dogs and some of them had less than desirable coats. Is that just dogs I seen or is that something Mr. Brown dog doesn’t produce.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Wed May 09, 2018 9:14 am

Stretch: It takes two dogs to make a litter. We can put together two dogs, both with great coats and still end up with a mixture in the litter. The key to consistently producing good coats is to start with dogs that come from several generations of good coats. Need a solid genetic base to get consistency. Sometimes a breeder has to go outside what they want in one area to get something else in another. Refer back to, "the perfect dog."

If Mr. Brown were 23 inches high and weighed 55 lbs, he would never have come up in this conversation.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby hicntry » Wed May 09, 2018 10:16 am

orhunter wrote:Stretch: It takes two dogs to make a litter. We can put together two dogs, both with great coats and still end up with a mixture in the litter. The key to consistently producing good coats is to start with dogs that come from several generations of good coats. Need a solid genetic base to get consistency. Sometimes a breeder has to go outside what they want in one area to get something else in another. Refer back to, "the perfect dog."

If Mr. Brown were 23 inches high and weighed 55 lbs, he would never have come up in this conversation.


Lot of truth to this and the coats will never be consistent in V dogs at this stage. Mind sets, gov't regs, etcetera, have pretty much reduced actual breeding to just trying to produce some good pups in any given cross. As KJ said in another thread, when one gets a good cross there is a need to keep repeating it because it may be awhile before another that is as good comes along. Going back some years when breeders had a lot of dogs, all a person had to do was walk onto his yard and it was obvious that person was an actual breeder. There may be 20 or 30 dogs on the yard and there was a consistency across the board..... including all the same coats. There was a day when someone with a good eye could look at a dog for the first time and pretty much tell who produced that dog. The consistency was amazing. Those days are gone my friends because none of this can be done breeding to paper or tests. Why are Elhew and Miller household names in many circles? Because they produced a lot of great dogs that few other dogs could compete with and it was done through actual breeding.....linebreeding and inbreeding. Also a thing of the past.

MD brought up genetic markers for coat a while back. Genetic testing for those markers may be the only way to produce consistent coats today.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Wed May 09, 2018 10:40 am

Hicntry: The Griff coat is complicated genetically. Far too many markers involved to test for and breed for. We'd need to forget everything else about the dogs to nail down coat and every breeder would need to be on board. That isn't going to happen. If everyone does the best they can with what's available, it's probably good enough. We can't get everyone to even consider dealing with, "the best they can with what's available," to get to the level the good breeders are working for. Good breeding takes effort, looking beyond what's easy and local for serious progress to be made. How many are willing to take the next step?

MD: I probably misunderstood your reference to the "show" breeders you mentioned?

Something else about Jacque. I think he's probably a much better dog than what he showed everyone at the invitational. He was a good example of what training can force a dog to do just to comply with the trainer. Kind of like teaching our children to clean up their bedrooms. Yea, we can get 'em to do it but they certainly aren't going enjoy it and call it fun.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby hicntry » Wed May 09, 2018 10:51 am

"The Griff coat is complicated genetically."

All coats are complicated genetically. Without old style breeding over several generations, well, you have what is there today.
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