Most Influential Griff?

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Most Influential Griff?

Postby CajunGriffs » Sat May 07, 2011 5:44 pm

Wondering if some of the senior (no offense meant) Griff folks here have an opinion on this. I am sure it has been discussed at some point in time, probably on here in the past, but it was a thought that crossed my mind.

Is there one Griff that is regarded as the best test/trial Griff of all time? Another regarded as the best breeder, or is there one or two that are a combination of both?


I thought it might make for an informative discussion.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Kyle » Sat May 07, 2011 9:11 pm

Czig-Czag of Valley House :D
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Sat May 07, 2011 9:56 pm

I concur.....
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Spindog » Sun May 08, 2011 7:46 am

who was czig czag?
The GOOGLE says little.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Sun May 08, 2011 12:49 pm

Cajun:

Most influential dog does not exist. Test/Trials do not indicate worthiness. A dog's ability to produce good offspring is how "influence" is measured. I am not qualified to answer this question any better than I have as my experience with the breed is but a short 14 years. I could throw out some names but it'd be meaningless considering the source.

Most influential breeder is without a doubt, Bill Jensen, whom I call the modern day Korthals. There were some lesser known breeders working along side Mr. Jensen but the only one I can name is Pat McKinley. Someone else will have to fill in the gaps as I have no knowledge of the other names involved. In the past twenty years, a small handful of breeders has carried the flag and those names have changed little.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Sun May 08, 2011 5:37 pm

I tend to agree with or that to this point there hasn't been a most influential dog (male or female).

If looking purely at numbers, OWEN DES DUNES DU CAPTALAT has sired over 20 litters and his semen has the potential to still be used. It is owned by a breeder in California. DUCHASSEUR BAYOU is being used quite a bit today with over 25 breedings to date. PIPO DE LA RIVIERE D'OE has sired at least 30 litters.

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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Grizwald » Sun May 08, 2011 6:56 pm

No senior nor expert but I do have an opinion. :D

In sheer numbers these dogs show up in a whole lot of grifs.
Sires- Furst Von Der Neuburg, Ingo Vom Kastanien Hain, & Owen (as mentioned)

Dams- Glacer Cool Deecee, Bar Mi's Greten, & Sharon's Pewter Point

Influential within NAVHDA titled dogs.
Aspen Point's Barrel
Aspen Point's Buttstock
Acajou Du Feu Follet
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby CajunGriffs » Sun May 08, 2011 7:42 pm

Grizwald wrote:
In sheer numbers these dogs show up in a whole lot of grifs.
Sires- Furst Von Der Neuburg, Ingo Vom Kastanien Hain, & Owen (as mentioned)

Dams- Glacer Cool Deecee, Bar Mi's Greten, & Sharon's Pewter Point

Influential within NAVHDA titled dogs.
Aspen Point's Barrel
Aspen Point's Buttstock
Acajou Du Feu Follet
Anton of Geneva Lake


I was just wondering if there was a dog or two in the history that was agreed upon as "THE GRIFF" to have in the blood line vs just having a ton of litters.

No biggie really. Just a novice asking questions.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Sun May 08, 2011 9:30 pm

Kyle: You forgot, Alice B. Toklias

Before we can measure influence we have to agree on how we measure it. If we go back into hunting pedigrees far enough, the dogs Griz mentioned are in most of them. Simply because in the beginning of the modern era, there were very few qualified dogs used in breeding. Those early dogs influence is due mostly to chance and not necessarily by design. Griffon breeding was pretty much in the dark ages in the '70's and beyond. Griz's list of NAVHDA VC's is the result of breeding by design and the legacy of these dogs in hunting lines is well documented. There are a number of non-titled dogs that deserve equal attention.

A few of these are;
Alder's Edge Ian
Jacky du Bois Aux Palombes
Duchasseur Extra
Goose Creek Amigo
Shingobee Lake Czar

The list of dogs is really quite long, the list of breeders is much shorter.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby CajunGriffs » Mon May 09, 2011 3:59 am

orhunter wrote:Kyle: You forgot, Alice B. Toklias

Before we can measure influence we have to agree on how we measure it.



That said, how would you measure it?

Titles of the highest level won? How many champions/titled dogs sired/whelped?
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon May 09, 2011 7:44 am

CajunGriffs wrote:
orhunter wrote:Kyle: You forgot, Alice B. Toklias

Before we can measure influence we have to agree on how we measure it.



That said, how would you measure it?

Titles of the highest level won? How many champions/titled dogs sired/whelped?



Titles are but wasted paper ! Sure they "can" show certain attributes in a dog, but people should not look at titles alone.
Many good Griffons have added to the Griffon world that have never been titled, and there are poor Griffons that have a title and should have never been bred. Point is that titles can't dictate the influence a dog has carried on.

What I would offer as a way to see the importance of a dogs importance is more of a team effort. Did the parents produce good quality dogs. Did the offspring produce good quality dogs....and so one.
I don't think a flash in the pan of one dog is influential in the entire breed. The neat thing about the Griffon breed is that there are dogs out there that are sold to hunters that are registered but but not tested and this makes them off the radar screen. That's why as breeders we are always making calls and finding what quality dogs are out there.

I like to see dogs in pedigree's, but there are dogs that I don't want to see in them to.

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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby Grizwald » Mon May 09, 2011 9:20 am

Titles are but wasted paper !


Apparently that's not the case with many of todays grif breeders. Just look at the list of adds toting CH sired litters, VC pups, from CH lines, NAVHDA tested dogs, etc... Is $$ trumping improvement?
Quickest way to put a noose on a gene pool is to over use the grif du jour. Folks are putting way too much into the paper trail. A lot of these "top" dogs mentioned are also repsonsible for the flaws we are dealing with today. Many lines are bottlenecking because of paper breeding. Problem is these dogs are selling for big bucks and people are buying.

As for influential grifs (which in my opionin means improving hunt, drive, coat, temperament and over all betterment of the breed)
My vote goes to the Aspen Point B litter. These dogs NAVHDA test scores are nothing great, No VC's. It's their descentents that are shining today. High drive, proper coat and size, sound temperament just solid hunting grifs. I'm sure others will disagree.

Remember there is no perfect dog. With the good comes the bad. The skeletons with pop up sooner or later.
If ones not looking at the complete package, strengths and weaknessess, improvement is doubtful.
Luckily a few are doing it right. There are some great dogs on the ground right now.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby deschien » Mon May 09, 2011 9:37 am

Tom Healy mentions Barb Jensen. She once told me. "There are no perfect dogs." In a small gene pool like griffons individual dogs can have a big impact, both good and bad. As Grizwald points out when you breed tight on any dog you discover the good traits and the faults behind each. Not a stud or line that does not have an issue.

Barb also said that when someone make the perfect dog all other breeders are done. With the diverse opinions on what is the ideal griffon I think the "perfect dog" is a long ways off and there's plenty of work to be done by responsible breeders for years to come. Hopefully we'll have better genetic tools going forward and work diligently to improve the breed.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby blue04 » Mon May 09, 2011 10:13 am

Grizwald wrote:
Titles are but wasted paper !


As for influential grifs (which in my opionin means improving hunt, drive, coat, temperament and over all betterment of the breed)
My vote goes to the Aspen Point B litter. These dogs NAVHDA test scores are nothing great, No VC's. It's their descentents that are shining today. High drive, proper coat and size, sound temperament just solid hunting grifs. I'm sure others will disagree.


Since I'm not a Griff person, I'm going to take Grizwald at his word that the descendants of the Aspen Point B Litter are top-notch, and that their test scores were not stellar. Assuming this is the case, it demonstrates the main pitfall with test scores. This would seem to indicate that test scores are NOT a great indicator of whether a particular dog (or group of dogs) should be bred. If test scores were the main criteria for selecting breed stock, these dogs might never have been bred.

IMHO, test scores are just one very small indicator in a long list of things that should be looked at when selecting dogs for breeding. There are way too many variables involved in the testing process to say that the test scores of a dog are the end-all-be-all in evaluating that dog.
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Re: Most Influential Griff?

Postby orhunter » Mon May 09, 2011 11:20 am

Griffman brings up a good point about breeding titles. I know of two VC that should not have been bred. I bet he knows of several more. There are certain kennels you don't want to see in pedigrees along with individual dogs. This is what makes buying Griffons all the more difficult for many folks. Sorting out the mix and finding the gems.

Tom: Indeed, Barb Jensen was the meat in the stew. She deserves equal if not greater credit.

Yes, some of the dogs mentioned do carry baggage and if they're in the pedigree, any pups that develop into breeding quality adults, will require genetic testing. Something else Griz brings up is the number of unknowns suddenly appearing out of the fog and producing good test scores even VC's. This is possibly related to what Griff Man said "there are poor Griffons out there with a title and should never have been bred." Test scores whether they be 112 NA's or VC's, don't mean a whole lot. I also agree with Griz concerning the Aspen Point "B" litter. WOW!

One of the first things I ask whenever a new dog comes on the scene, "how does the dog move" I want to know if the dog is an athlete or a jogger. Test scores are something I almost never bring up as they're way down the list of priorities.

This is a great topic, lots more to discuss but I gotta go......
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