Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:46 pm

How many made the grade to avid hunters, or how many made the grade to be able to go back into the breeding program? If the second question is answered with a high percentage, then that's the real success imo!
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby JTracyII » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:18 pm

JONOV wrote:
gwp4me2 wrote:What percentage of pups out of a good breeding do you feel like should be bred? One of the problems with a breeding group like the VDD is that many people think that any dog that qualifies should be bred. There are some that are improving their lines but a whole new crop who think if they pass a test they have a great specimen. The minimum standard isn't that impressive. Even pups out of an excellent breeding only give you a 'better chance' of a great dog. Now it is a slippery slope when we start ignoring genetic problems but not all genetic problems are created equal. Even among bad bites there is a big difference between a missing p1 and severely undershot. We know there are no perfect dogs so that means that every breeding is a compromise. So if I want a hunting puppy my first priority is hunting talent and desire. Next conformation to allow it to do its job. Health, and on and on until you get down to trivial things. If I'm never breeding I'm going to neuter anyway. I've got a better idea for improving breeds. You can't breed a litter until you've successfully put 4 or 5 dogs through the highest levels of testing. Then you would hopefully have learned enough to recognize what the best dogs look like instead of a newbie breeding 'the best dog we've ever seen'.

That sounds like a recipe for a $10K dog. And, not to mention, you will turn the means into the end. The means of evaluating hunting dogs is evaluating them against other dogs or evaluating them against a standard. It's the worst system there is aside from all the others. Of course, hunting with the parents and seeing them is a better solution but most of us aren't that fortunate. But doing what you suggest will lead to breeders that don't hunt much IMO.



Doing what he suggests would also lead to breeds going off into the sunset to be remembered in history only. Great ideal, but not practical at all. Now maybe requiring breeders to at least run one dog at high levels of testing would be more practical.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:14 pm

JONOV wrote:.


I agree whole heartedly, but...

We're already there!



Great posts...

3ds[/quote]

-1
The way dogs are bred today, both parents may be really good in their own right,,,,but it says nothing about their offspring. At one time it did when breeders actually produced lines but today, two random parents may only produce one or two pups that are even comparable. Problem is...today that is considered a success.[/quote]
Since you're one of the few on here (it seems) who bred a large line of dogs, I have to ask...

What was your "success rate?"

It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, that even the Ferrell Millers and Bob Wehle's of the world culled pretty ruthlessly from their lines. Out of one of their litters, how many made the grade?[/quote]

Really tough question to answer Jonov. It involves much more than most here realize. I closed out with 14 generations. What most don't understand is that every time a new dog is introduced, it brings the "line" back to a 50/50 mix. When one of those offspring is taken back to the original line, it quickly takes it right back because a prepotent line has already been established. In the beginning, I culled more pups that most will ever have in five or more lifetimes. Later on, I gave the ones that didn't measure up away because they still made good pets. This idea that dogs have to be tested is BS. There are a lot of people out there that know a good dog when they see it....no testing needed. Testing is for those that don't have any idea what they are looking at. The thing to remember is that breeding is about consistency.......2 out of 10 good pups is not good breeding.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:42 pm

I believe there's a big difference in the outcome of different types of testing. Testing one dog against another in a 50-100 dog trial can be a good way to choose a dog to use in a breeding program. Especially if they win several such trials. Considering you believe the judges do know what a good dog is, and the handler is able to show the dog. Testing a dog against a standard is much different and is not going to tell you nearly as much as the other, as far as picking a breeding prospect.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby LongHammer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:52 am

I don't care if he has one eye bald spots and a testicle that never drop's if he can hunt we will make room. But my hunt tests happen over the hill when 1 coyote track turns into 6 and the judge's are not human.
"The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln
LongHammer
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:17 am

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:49 am

I think Hunting the dog is the best way to determine if it has the qualities necessary to excel at hunting.

Most Hunt Tests are way too artificial to provide an accurate readout of a dog's ability to excel on wild game and they are more about how much effort the Trainer/Handler chose to spend training OB. Hunt tests cannot measure a dog's stamina on a long grueling road trip to keep digging for upland birds, or its determination to persist under icy cold windy water fowling duties. And I have seen too much suspect Judging to base my decisions on Test Scores. They bring some value in motivating some to develop and train their dogs but I believe the value in evaluating a dog's hunting skills on wild game is severely overrated.

Which is not to say there are not good dogs running in tests. Of course there are. But I have to see it with my own eyes to know which it is. Otherwise you sit at your computer and see a readout of a dog that got a Prize III for missing minimums in Search and Cooperation let's say. Is it because the dog had such excellent bird drive it ran completely off the course after a bird that flew out of bounds and then took awhile before heeding the handlers pleas to return to the small bird field? While the Prize I dog trotted and loped around the bird field pointing the pen raised morons with great obedience ...

The competition events may be better at stacking one up one dog vs another but too often what they are measuring has little to do with practical hunting of wild game. The CoonHound Night Hunts evolved many strains of Hounds to be hot nosed tree happy idiots with generations of Grand Night Champions on a piece of paper.

Ultimately you have to trust your Breeder's judgement and getting eyes on their dogs and offspring remains a really good thing to do when and where you can. It is not that hard to determine if a Breeder really hunts their dogs a great deal or not. Most people who hunt a lot will not do so behind a poor dog is the practical of that.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:33 am

I agree, but I want to see both AG, gotta see that brain and nose work. Can I pick a dog only though trialing? NO. Can I pick a dog solely on hunting, YES. But, only if I know the breeding (parents, grandparents, pedigree) really well. As well as the natural abilities the pups show and how early. I guess that's why I started breeding my own dogs!
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:39 am

Steve, that makes good sense to me.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby daeion » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:05 am

I don't plan to ever breed a dog, so as long as the defect doesn't affect their ability to hunt or live a normal comfortable life I'd consider it.
daeion
Started
Started
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby CohanseyDD » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:36 am

Every parent throws some undesirable trait if they parent enough pups. The level of that fault is the key to consider. How many pups were whelped and how many affected pups were there? 4 or 5 pups affected out of 80 pups on the ground...negligible in my eyes.
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:36 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:Every parent throws some undesirable trait if they parent enough pups. The level of that fault is the key to consider. How many pups were whelped and how many affected pups were there? 4 or 5 pups affected out of 80 pups on the ground...negligible in my eyes.


The point is directed at whether everyone wants breeding stock or a hunting dog.

Used to be all anyone wanted was a good hunting dog.

Now, it seems that everyone wants a breed certifiable puppy so that they can start milking the system.

I personally got into these dogs to hunt... I have a job, rental properties, and investments for additional income... not puppies.

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby CohanseyDD » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:45 am

Not everyone is doing as you say. Sure...some are, but that type of behavior happens whether it's dogs or anything else. The breeding regulations from VDD allow it, so it's not something that can be entirely controlled.

You ask if folks are looking for a hunting dog or a breedable dog? Why can't it be both? Why can't we strive to produce great hunting dogs and at the same time...try to make them as correct in every way as we can?

I don't think it has to be "either or."
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby STait » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:25 am

CohanseyDD wrote:You ask if folks are looking for a hunting dog or a breedable dog? Why can't it be both? Why can't we strive to produce great hunting dogs and at the same time...try to make them as correct in every way as we can?
I don't think it has to be "either or."


Exactly!!! I only have so much room in my kennel, my hunting dogs need to be breedable, and my breeders need to be hunting dogs!
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:09 am

STait wrote:
CohanseyDD wrote:You ask if folks are looking for a hunting dog or a breedable dog? Why can't it be both? Why can't we strive to produce great hunting dogs and at the same time...try to make them as correct in every way as we can?
I don't think it has to be "either or."


Exactly!!! I only have so much room in my kennel, my hunting dogs need to be breedable, and my breeders need to be hunting dogs!


Yes, if you are a BREEDER.

Does everyone have to be a BREEDER? Should everyone be a BREEDER?

The simple solution is already in the system... breed leases.

It allows a breeder to sell pups or retain, watch how ALL pups develop, and reach out to owners to breed the BEST out of his kennel or litter.

It's a win/win where allegedly the most knowledgeable (i.e. true breeder) does the breeding, breeds only the BEST, and the hunters just do what they do best, HUNT.

And, the breeder isn't left breeding the dog that he kept (just because it was the one he selected at 7wks vs. the true best pup in the litter). Anyone seen that before...;)


Back to the OP... I'd take a pup from the right breeding even if there were a suspicion of bad bite or missing teeth or similar minor issue. But, my only interest in a pup is for hunting. So, i'm more amenable to the "risks".

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Postby JONOV » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:52 am

I have come to the conclusion that some of these conversations regarding a should/shouldn't breed lose sight of the fact that 10 breeders have 10 different reasons for breeding and 10 priorities when they do it.

I could buy a GWP from Thunderhills or Afterhours or Ripsnorter and they all would be great dogs. I would guess all those breeders have slightly different priorities and reasons to breed.

Some do it for extra money, some do it for a hobby, some do it to keep themselves in dogs to run in their preferred venue of competition or show. So, a dog that throws phenomenal hunters with minor conformation issues would be ok to some and not others.
JONOV
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests