Are Versatile breeds welcome at HRC events?

HRC, NAHRA, etc

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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed May 31, 2006 11:24 am

ME,

Awesome drill! I often "no" the dog off of a mark and send for a blind, etc. but I've never sent the dog for a mark, stopped him on the way, and then cast away from that to a blind. But a necssary skill to keep from sucking back to a mark, eh? No wonder you've got all the titles. Does this drill have an author? James Spencer, in his book on retriever drills describes origins, etc. but doesn't have this one? Just wondering.

And thanks for taking the time to put this together. Nice job!

Bruce
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Postby ME » Wed May 31, 2006 2:10 pm

Yes I found it from a guy I trained with. I believe Evan Graham came up with it.

If you use real birds in this drill you can do it for an hour and the dogs will not get bored.
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Postby Rick Hall » Wed May 31, 2006 5:56 pm

Graham says it's his idea and is in, if memory serves, Smartworks II.
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed May 31, 2006 9:09 pm

Rick,

Yes, page 67. Hadn't read it. I got the book but I'm still back on Smartworks I - doing the swimby presently. I had hoped to get a Pz I in the UT earlier this month and go on to a bunch of more water work, but got 193 instead and Pz II. It was the damn duck search (got 3 ,,, needed 4). We got a Pz II last summer because of mediocre search too. Dog does 45 minute searches in training and potters at test after 8 minutes or so. WTF? Will try third time but not let it interfere with the advanced and more controlling handling stuff. Looking forward to HRC tests.

ME,

Thanks a lot for this drill. Looks like a good one!

Bruce
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Postby bill10979 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:51 pm

Me-thanks for the diagram, I just saw it and honestly am still a little puzzled by it. I havent done anything like it yet. Does this require angles? I havent taught or worked any to this point.

My dog is compliant with whistle. No problem sitting her.
I think(operative word) I can call her off a mark and direct to a blind but havent attempted yet, seems like this is the that drill for that and for handling. Question though, why would you line a dog on a mark and then re cast to a blind if so? I just need a little more instruction if you or anyone can give me a tutorial.

My dog gets bored sh*tless w/bumpers, Id think the "real thing" is the key.
I can drill once or twice before I see the reaction to the tedius drilling.
thanks
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Postby ME » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:07 pm

Why,

Well what if you send the dog and you see that a cripple is getting away and the dog is heading for the stone dead one. I have casted a dog for this very reason when picking up a double. Dog was going for the go bird like you would expect but the first one down was not dead. So the dog got to the fall area and was right on the duck butt after it tried to make its escape.

Now as far as the purpose of the drill I believe it is just to have control of the dog and work as a team. If you can have the dog trust you and come off a mark and go which ever direction you send it you have a finished retriever.

Yes your dog needs to know angled backs. Now the dog knows where the pile is so it will take a pretty good angle on its own. But with the different angles to the pile you correspond a slightly different angle with your arm to signify the angle for the dog. Now the dog knows where the pile is so it is somewhat conditioning the dog which angle to take according to your arm angle.

calling the dog off the mark to send her the pile that you have just shown her is there before you put her up should not be that big of a deal but you must be ready on that first cast once you stop the dog to stop and correct the dog if it ignores your cast and heads for the mark because it will.

In Evan's book I believe that he says to stop the dog and the first flag and angle back cast it to the pile. I didn't like that because I thought that with the angle it would be to easy for the dog to arc back to the mark and then you have to fight the dog to the pile. Thus by stopping the dog at the farthest flag the cast is at as great an angle to mark as possible for the drill. SO there is no confusion for the dog as to what you are asking it to do. Then the angle backs will be easier, thus creating success early so that the harder ones are easier since the dog knows what you are asking of it.
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4) Thou shalt not bear false wittness (purgery)
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Postby bill10979 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:40 pm

Good explanation.
Before sending out, I look for a cripple 1st. Ill then send to that bird-I havent had a real life encounter like this yet to where I had to redirect or couldnt swat.
I think it is a beneficial drill and may try it this weekend. Not sure about the angled backs so we'll see......Ill keep you posted.

thanks again
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:06 am

I think angled backs seem to be the most used cast in FT and HTs, at least at the higher levels, because the judges want you to "challenge the line" or keep the line pretty tight that the dog takes to the blind. Not sure about HRC. If the dog's headed straight for the blind there's no need for a cast at all, so the "straight back" isn't needed; and if the dog gets so far off that an "over" is needed then it isn't "challenging the line." However, the "angled back" is more likely to be refused than the others ... so pick your poison.
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Versatiles

Postby bill10979 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:59 pm

Just returned from or PM training.
Set up a 200 yd blind out of the chute. She aces it. Feein pretty confident right. Double T. She blows me off, right off the bat!. Set up some angled backs, boom knocks it out.
Just when you think you know what youre doing!
I think she gets so excited, looks at me as she makes her way to the bumper while giving me the middle finger. So, I Jump her ass. She complies. Its a love/hate relationship with this dog!
Any you guys suffer like this?
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:42 pm

Bill,

Yes, I understand completely. Seems like all the training with my dog involves negotiation. With labs I used to just tell them how it would be!

My dog hates piles of bumpers, especially if it's a double or single -T so I use "walking baseball" instead. ( I think I described it in another post either on this or a closely related thread but I'm telling you the dog will not hate it and it will sharpen your dog's casts quickly and efficiently) You don't have to set anything up and in three minutes it's ready for other things.

Generally repetition isn't all that good ... e.g. there's no point in repeating lining drills once the dog's shown it understands - just move on to something else. If the dog fails, then simplify the test it so it builds on success. Usually the less correction the better - unless it's blowing you off for things like "not going", "not coming," or "not stopping," and even refusals here can mean the dog is just really confused.

I try to figure out what the purpose of the drill is and then design a way to get the job done without the labor of repetition. For instance, the drill ME has shown us can be set up in a couple different ways. First, teach the dog blinds (which you have already) and then teach it to stop while it's heading for a mark. Then combine them. This is to in no way take away from the value of the drill he has shown us but if your dog doesn't like all the didactic stuff then reprocess it so it works for it.

We just finished the "swimby" (which wasn't much fun either), but now the dog sure understands not heading for the bank everytime it gets the chance.

Yes, it can be frustrating, but it's so much more satisfying to build the sessions so you both go away feeling good about it. Regular, shorter sessions generally are more upbeat IMO. And lots of marks.

Bruce
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Re: Versatiles

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:06 am

bill10979 wrote:Just returned from or PM training.
Set up a 200 yd blind out of the chute. She aces it. Feein pretty confident right. Double T. She blows me off, right off the bat!. Set up some angled backs, boom knocks it out.
Just when you think you know what youre doing!
I think she gets so excited, looks at me as she makes her way to the bumper while giving me the middle finger. So, I Jump her ass. She complies. Its a love/hate relationship with this dog!
Any you guys suffer like this?


That's what training, as opposed to exposure, is about. Learning that doing what comes naturally isn't always enough.
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:29 pm

Bill,

I thought I saw a picture of your dog on another post. Looks like a Hell of a dog to me! Might also be a handfull, huh?

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Postby bill10979 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:42 pm

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/b ... /greta.jpg

Hope that works. Heres a nice photo of her. Yea, shes a handful at times as shes so driven, but she can turn it off real quickly, and is very good with my family and friends/dogs.
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Postby bill10979 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:52 pm

Heres one "in drive" shes happy to see a handler wearing a bite sleeve!
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/b ... CF0006.jpg
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:31 pm

Yes, cool looking dog!
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