Are Versatile breeds welcome at HRC events?

HRC, NAHRA, etc

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Versatiles

Postby bill10979 » Tue May 16, 2006 8:43 am

Youre right about it not happening.
But I think youre wrong about it being easy to teach-that of recovering cripples. Dogs Ive seen that excelled at it, either had it or they didnt. I'd like to know what teaching methods you use! I see it much more of a breeding trait than any taught command.

I recall my breeder telling me about an event he partook in. 27 dogs. They used a dead duck and tied it to a fishing line, tossed out a ways, reeled it in, through cattails and up on a bank. 3 dogs passed-his DD, a Lab and a Golden. 24 dogs swam in circles. I think open water recoveries are a bit different than on grass and where good dogs quickly separate from the pack. Something like this wouldnt eat up that much time. Dogs either find the birds or swim in circles. Its just a thought.

So many dogs earn these titles and while meaningful, there is a big handler element, I'd just like to see a dog showcase more than that of following a whistle or hand signal, especailly as far as game recovery is concerned.
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Postby crackerd » Tue May 16, 2006 1:48 pm

Rick Hall wrote:I'm thinking one would have to keep changing the location of a drag to prevent either multiple scent trails or a scent highway to the dragged mark. And even if you manage to make it fair to the whole flight of dogs, you've learned nothing more than that Pup will do something quite easy to teach.

In a search test it really wouldn't make a bit of difference whether there was a bird out there, as the test would be of whether Pup had the hunt in him to stay hard at it for several minutes on the promise of a bird to recover. But to be meaningful, it would have to eat up a lot more time than could readily be afforded a 30 dog field, while still covering other requisits.

None of which matters, since it ain't gonna happen.


All on the money, Rick, save for "ain't gonna happen." Maybe not HRC, but NAHRA at senior/master has a "trail" that's more blood trailing (dead bird) than a track. Because of that "scent highway" that gets lain with all the traffic, think I've seen one dog fail it in five years.

NAVHDA's duck search is always a live duck, and I'm ever amused by the handlers who prefer their dogs not "recover" the duck as the search winds down, lest they be judged on the retrieve as well as the search (perseverance and nose).

The unsung, underappreciated American Hunting Dog Club--at its upper level test--offers a variation on the duck search and track, with a live duck pulled through a specific area of the water for each dog before it's released, so the nose can be checked straight away and to see if the dog will continue on tracking or go off independently (which can be a euphemism for swimming for the sake of swimming).

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Postby Rick Hall » Tue May 16, 2006 6:20 pm

I recall my breeder telling me about an event he partook in. 27 dogs. They used a dead duck and tied it to a fishing line, tossed out a ways, reeled it in, through cattails and up on a bank. 3 dogs passed-his DD, a Lab and a Golden. 24 dogs swam in circles.


That's spooky. I'd like to think you couldn't find 24 duck dogs in the state of Louisiana that don't know wounded puddlers head for cover.
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HRC

Postby bill10979 » Thu May 18, 2006 7:50 pm

?? for you all.
Why in the hunt tests are you not allowed to use wind, say position your dog downwind slightly and hunt dead, as in a hunt situation as opposed to handling and not using nose to the duck? This is my understanding. Is this considered cheating at Finished level?
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Postby ME » Thu May 18, 2006 7:57 pm

The judges will say " We all know that these dogs have noses, we want to see you put the dog on the bird"

I see their point a bit but they have to grade somehow and that is what they have chosen.

If not how far down wind do you get to send your dog and consider the dog doing the work and following your commands?
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Versatiles

Postby bill10979 » Thu May 18, 2006 8:18 pm

I see your point but submit that in a "real" hunt situtation thats what we'd do. Id think with 15 yds or so and blow a hunt em dead whistle would be realistic, anyway not gonna try to change the rules. Pissin in the wind!

Question, we did some double T work tonight out to 100yds and damn if she didnt ace it off the bat. Just perfect. Right backs, left backs, overs etc. Now, I thought, I can quit now on a good note or try some more. 2nd time, ok. 3rd time wasnt taking overs well at all. I quit and said alright. Should I have quit when she aced 1st time? Or is more drilling but not overdoing it too much?

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Postby Rick Hall » Thu May 18, 2006 8:37 pm

ME is right. The answer to your first question is that a hunt test blind isn't a "can you find the bird test," it's a handling test. (Remember, if your dog has run the rest of the test as it should, the judges will have nothing to judge its handling on but the blind.)

Can't help you on the drill, except to say this decidedly out of the mainstream trainer usually avoids repeating drills in the same location or manner. Rather than teaching by rote repetition, I like incorporate the concepts we're teaching into a variety of situations and settings. Can't say it's "the best" way, but it keeps the hounds and I from getting bored.
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Drills

Postby bill10979 » Thu May 18, 2006 8:54 pm

Thanks Rick,
I probably will mix it up a little, I was curious to see how she'd handle and she surprised me a bit, in a good way.
I find this breed or her I should say, a bit of a challenge. They dont like repetition, can be a little stubborn and like most, she is medium soft. I have been much harder on previous German Shepherds and GSPs. She will/has sulked in previous training years ago, so I know its important to end up beat and not overdo it. Shes a hard dog on game, but is somewhat handler soft..really lives to please. Some say Chessies are this way, dont know. She and I have had a few "heart to hearts" then shes fine.
Estrogen maybe?
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Postby ME » Sun May 21, 2006 11:23 pm

Personally I say forget the T and the TT.

Teach the swim by

Teach the dog the five directional cast like a baseball drill.

run pattern blinds.

Do marks marks and more marks

Do the definitive casting drill.

Do test setups with marks and blinds and honors.

You will be fine..

the T and TT causes popping problems with alot of dogs IMO. It is probably just a handler issue since pros have used it for years.

But you aint a pro so that says it all.
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Postby Rick Hall » Mon May 22, 2006 7:28 am

I'm not a mainstream program retriever trainer, but my impression's been that they essentially push through TT inspired pop with force-tos. Dunno.

Do know our practice has been to do work of TT's nature sparingly with plenty non-stop stuff in between to keep pups from anticipating a stop and popping for it. Just our way, not "the" way.
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Versatiles

Postby bill10979 » Mon May 22, 2006 12:20 pm

So far, pretty good. Pop ups not a huge concern but could be. Ill probably just do occasionally from now on, I think your advice is sound.
The Lab guys I know really work this hard and seem the basis for all the other stuff, IMO. Im trying to incorporate alot of what they do but see that she isnt a "lab" and I will have to break up the monotony alot more. Her desire is very strong, but she gets a little sloppy it seems as we do more work as I mentioned.
I drilled very hard last week, and when I had the opportunity Friday to let her track and run a bunny I let her. 150yd chase and track out of sight, and she pulls up lame. Today she was doing better after a weekend of rest. No pretty ribbons this weekend to show off, so shes healing and Im trying reschedule a test.
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Postby ME » Mon May 22, 2006 7:25 pm

Well here is my theory on this.

If you can do pattern blinds and the dog will run 100-150 yards to a known pile. And you use a specific command to do these blinds.

Then you do 5 directional casting drill (baseball) using a different word for each direction, so that the dog has two cues to go off of the hand and the word so that it goes the correct way.

Then you do the definitive casting drill so that you can cast your dog off of a seen mark to an unseen pile you don't need the T or the TT IMO.

Since in any hunting situation or testing you will send your dog and if it takes your line you are okay. Once the suction gets hold of the dog you then stop it and get the dog facing you. It now to the dog it becomes the 5 directional casting drill. If you can get your dog to go with consistency the way you want it to it shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 casts to get it to the bird if it gets off line.

So you see how these drills come together for the dog from its perspective. They put it together pretty quick and you will never have any popping worries.
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1) Thou Shalt not Murder (this includes Abortion)
2) Thou Shalt not commit Adultery
3) Thou Shalt not steal (this includes having the government steal for you)
4) Thou shalt not bear false wittness (purgery)
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun May 28, 2006 12:46 am

ME,

What's the "difinitive casting drill" you speak of? Not sure I know it. I agree about the T and TT - my dog thinks they suck. And boy, do I concur with others about the v - dogs getting bored with the repetitive drills! They insist on more interesting stuff.


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Postby ME » Mon May 29, 2006 11:06 pm

It will take a while and I need a diagram to really show you what it is. Great drill and the dogs love it.

When you dog will do it you have a retriever that will handle..

Give me a day or so to play with my photoshop and make a diagram so that you understand it.
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1) Thou Shalt not Murder (this includes Abortion)
2) Thou Shalt not commit Adultery
3) Thou Shalt not steal (this includes having the government steal for you)
4) Thou shalt not bear false wittness (purgery)
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Postby ME » Tue May 30, 2006 8:19 pm

Image

Okay here is how the drill works.

First you need bumpers
Marking flags like the gas company uses
3 wingers if training alone or someone to throw marks.

You set in a straight line the marking flags spacing them 10 to 15 yards apart. In the end you will work up to 100 yards worth but you can start with 60 if you like.

You place a pile of bumpers at least one for every flag you have out 30 yards perpendicular to the line that you have made with the flags in line with the end flag #6.

Now you get your dog and you stand at flag #6 and you throw a bumper to the pile of bumpers that you have placed. You send your dog and have him retrieve to you. Sit your dog so that the pile of bumpers is to his side. You then walk to flag # 5 and cast your dog to the pile. When your dog comes to you, you sit him again and you walk to flag 4 and cast your dog to the pile again. And you repeat this until you are standing 10 yards past flag # 1 and you cast your dog back to the pile and he returns with the bumper. Now put your dog up.

Replenish the bumper pile

Image

Set up your wingers or have your training partner set up 20 yards past the 6th flag and 30 yards off to the side opposite of the pile of bumpers. Have him throw a few practice marks so that he gets good arc and consistency in where the bumpers land. You want them to land directly in line with the line of your flags. 20 yards past the last flag.

Now get your dog out and set up 10 yards before the first flag.

Call or have your buddy blow a call so that the dog is looking for the mark. Have your buddy throw the mark and then send the dog for the retrieve. Before the dog gets to the 6th flag hit your whistle and stop the dog. Have him face you and sit then cast the dog to the pile of bumpers. Don’t let the dog pick up the mark. Once the dog returns with the bumper from the pile send him to the seen mark. Now you repeat this stopping the dog on the way to the mark and casting him to the bumper pile at all the different flags. Always getting the mark after the cast to the pile.

I liked to use a real duck for the mark in this drill it keeps the dogs fired up and if you can cast the dog off of a real duck to pick up a bumper you have the control you need for a finished retriever.

Then once your dog has this down you repeat the whole scenario but have the bumper pile on the other side of the line of flags. And when your dog can do that side well you can set the drill up with a pile on each side of the line of flag and send the dog either way at any flag you stop it at.

You can add difficulty by having the marks come from either side and not from the same side each time. But don’t do that until your dog has the two sided piles down.

This is a finished drill your dog must know 5 directional casting already. And it must stop on the whistle.
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1) Thou Shalt not Murder (this includes Abortion)
2) Thou Shalt not commit Adultery
3) Thou Shalt not steal (this includes having the government steal for you)
4) Thou shalt not bear false wittness (purgery)
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